Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

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Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:06 pm

So what is everyone doing to try and line up employment? I haven't had an interview in months. Are any biglaw firms still looking? T6, around median.

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:08 pm

I also have not had an interview in months. I'm around median at M and wish I knew of more options for jobs to apply to.

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:39 pm

Has anyone tried cold-emailing alumni? My CSO keeps pushing me to do it but I'm not sure it's ever going to pay off especially at this late date. I think that's all they really have for me.

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby r6_philly » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So what is everyone doing to try and line up employment? I haven't had an interview in months. Are any biglaw firms still looking? T6, around median.


Penn Symplicity has some entry level jobs posted recently. I think yours should have them too.

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Has anyone tried cold-emailing alumni? My CSO keeps pushing me to do it but I'm not sure it's ever going to pay off especially at this late date. I think that's all they really have for me.


I've done this and had some interesting conversations, at the very least. I'm not sure if/when it will pay in terms of a job though.

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:59 pm

t10, median here. How many of us do you think are there?

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:11 pm

For those 3Ls who are at T6, T10, etc and are still jobless, what was your experience like at 3L OCI this year? Any tips for 2Ls who will have to do 3L OCI without a 2L summer associate position in August?

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:For those 3Ls who are at T6, T10, etc and are still jobless, what was your experience like at 3L OCI this year? Any tips for 2Ls who will have to do 3L OCI without a 2L summer associate position in August?


I'm at M and only a handful of firms came to interview, and it was not a hopeful situation for someone without firm experience over the summer. It was really pretty pathetic. Other schools may have more firms that come, though.

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:For those 3Ls who are at T6, T10, etc and are still jobless, what was your experience like at 3L OCI this year? Any tips for 2Ls who will have to do 3L OCI without a 2L summer associate position in August?


The people at 3L OCI will be mostly 1) 2L SAs who are still waiting for their full-time offers, but fully intend to return to their summer firms if offered, 2) 2L SAs looking to trade-up firms (these people I absolutely despise), 3) people who were no-offered, 4) people who struck out at 2L OCI. Of those last three groups many firms may only consider people who are looking to trade-up, except in the rare circumstance that someone makes a huge grade jump (top 5% at my T6 seemed to do it). The people who are waiting for their offers will usually half-ass 3L OCI but they still take up vital interview slots. Often you will see a ton of cancellations as people receive their offers after bidding.

The best way to approach 3L OCI is as a supplement to your other job search. Try to get as many interviews as possible since you don't know who is willing to call back non-SA people. Finally, resume drop at every suite- I got a callback that way from a firm that wasn't interviewing.

If you want to network, now is the time to do it so the partners can fwd your resume to HR in the fall and you get an interview that way.

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby DrGuano » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:37 am

Anonymous User wrote:So what is everyone doing to try and line up employment? I haven't had an interview in months. Are any biglaw firms still looking? T6, around median.


Not to be a dick, would like to know for others sake - when you say "around" median, does that mean below it?

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:35 pm

DrGuano wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So what is everyone doing to try and line up employment? I haven't had an interview in months. Are any biglaw firms still looking? T6, around median.


Not to be a dick, would like to know for others sake - when you say "around" median, does that mean below it?


Slightly below after 1L- about .04. Pretty significantly above as a 2L and first semester 3L. Since 1L grades matter so much more I always say median.

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:12 pm

How does someone "significantly above" median at a T6 wind up jobless? Genuinely curious. What do you think hurt you in your job hunt? Were you no-offered as a 2L SA?

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:21 pm

romothesavior wrote:How does someone "significantly above" median at a T6 wind up jobless? Genuinely curious. What do you think hurt you in your job hunt? Were you no-offered as a 2L SA?


I had a friend from T14, top 15% end up with no callbacks because he didn't do journal and wasn't super committed to the idea of killing himself for a firm (he ended up with BigGov).

Another friend from a T14, well above median, ended up with no callbacks because he picked a very narrow practice area as the only thing he would do and then didn't go to OCS for mock interviews and blew his chance with the ~20 or so firms at OCI that hire in that practice areas

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:35 pm

romothesavior wrote:How does someone "significantly above" median at a T6 wind up jobless? Genuinely curious. What do you think hurt you in your job hunt? Were you no-offered as a 2L SA?


I was median after 1L year, so I went into our OCI with median grades. That's when hiring happens and when your grades really give you the best leg up. Had I gone in with my current GPA after 2.5 semesters I have no doubt I would have gotten an offer. I am also straight through with no WE and bid very poorly. I worked for the government during 2L summer and there is no word on whether that agency will have anything full time and if they do they'll probably be able to fill those slots with experienced hires.

There are simply a lack of opportunities outside of the normal "hiring bonanzas" of 2L OCI, fed gov, and the really limited offerings in 3L OCI. If you fuck that up it can get very bad. After that it comes down to numbers- how many job openings can you find and apply to. And there are very few of those right now. Maybe some will open up later.

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:37 pm

How easy is it for 3Ls with SAs to land another firm job? How much do these students take away from the students that are jobless?

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How easy is it for 3Ls with SAs to land another firm job? How much do these students take away from the students that are jobless?


Anecdotally, this year there were quite a few 3Ls at my T6 who managed to trade-up. The typical story seemed to be someone at a V80-20 trying to go to a V10 especially in corporate.

Whether the students "trading-up" are really taking jobs from their no-job classmates is another matter entirely. It's true that some of those firms may not consider hiring anybody who hasn't already had a firm SA. However, I know even some V5 or V10 firms that took people without V100 SA jobs- although people seemed to have more success coming from midlaw or smaller business law firms than government which is the traditional fallback. One person I knew who got a job with a V20 even worked at a NLJ250 firm for free during 2L summer. And there are definitely firms where having a 2L SA is preferred but not required.

Whether slots will open up at the firms these students leave is another question. Some firms are very strict on the number of summers they need to keep year after year. I've heard that some firms even ask summers to recommend other students they know for those positions. So as much as it pains you to talk about firm work with your friends who have jobs, just know it can sometimes pay off down the road.

But yes, I would say students who trade up do take some (not a tremendous amount) slots that people without SA jobs could qualify for, and these opportunities are generally not replaced by jobs at the firms they leave.

EDIT: Another thing to remember is that 3L hiring is very practice-group specific. The most common area seemed to be corporate this year. So having in-house or midlaw experience in those areas really gave you a leg up.

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
romothesavior wrote:How does someone "significantly above" median at a T6 wind up jobless? Genuinely curious. What do you think hurt you in your job hunt? Were you no-offered as a 2L SA?


I was median after 1L year, so I went into our OCI with median grades. That's when hiring happens and when your grades really give you the best leg up. Had I gone in with my current GPA after 2.5 semesters I have no doubt I would have gotten an offer. I am also straight through with no WE and bid very poorly. I worked for the government during 2L summer and there is no word on whether that agency will have anything full time and if they do they'll probably be able to fill those slots with experienced hires.

There are simply a lack of opportunities outside of the normal "hiring bonanzas" of 2L OCI, fed gov, and the really limited offerings in 3L OCI. If you fuck that up it can get very bad. After that it comes down to numbers- how many job openings can you find and apply to. And there are very few of those right now. Maybe some will open up later.


This is almost exactly my situation at M. The pickings are slim without resorting to some type of shitlaw job I would basically be ashamed to do.

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
romothesavior wrote:How does someone "significantly above" median at a T6 wind up jobless? Genuinely curious. What do you think hurt you in your job hunt? Were you no-offered as a 2L SA?


I was median after 1L year, so I went into our OCI with median grades. That's when hiring happens and when your grades really give you the best leg up. Had I gone in with my current GPA after 2.5 semesters I have no doubt I would have gotten an offer. I am also straight through with no WE and bid very poorly. I worked for the government during 2L summer and there is no word on whether that agency will have anything full time and if they do they'll probably be able to fill those slots with experienced hires.

There are simply a lack of opportunities outside of the normal "hiring bonanzas" of 2L OCI, fed gov, and the really limited offerings in 3L OCI. If you fuck that up it can get very bad. After that it comes down to numbers- how many job openings can you find and apply to. And there are very few of those right now. Maybe some will open up later.

Right, I get all that. I'm a 2L so I know how the system works. But a median at student at CCN should have great odds at OCI, so I'm asking you what it is you thought you did that hurt you in your job hunt. Sounds like it was a poor bidding strategy that did you in?

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:08 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
romothesavior wrote:How does someone "significantly above" median at a T6 wind up jobless? Genuinely curious. What do you think hurt you in your job hunt? Were you no-offered as a 2L SA?


I was median after 1L year, so I went into our OCI with median grades. That's when hiring happens and when your grades really give you the best leg up. Had I gone in with my current GPA after 2.5 semesters I have no doubt I would have gotten an offer. I am also straight through with no WE and bid very poorly. I worked for the government during 2L summer and there is no word on whether that agency will have anything full time and if they do they'll probably be able to fill those slots with experienced hires.

There are simply a lack of opportunities outside of the normal "hiring bonanzas" of 2L OCI, fed gov, and the really limited offerings in 3L OCI. If you fuck that up it can get very bad. After that it comes down to numbers- how many job openings can you find and apply to. And there are very few of those right now. Maybe some will open up later.

Right, I get all that. I'm a 2L so I know how the system works. But a median at student at CCN should have great odds at OCI, so I'm asking you what it is you thought you did that hurt you in your job hunt. Sounds like it was a poor bidding strategy that did you in?


I would probably chalk it up to the combination of no WE (this is huge when you are part of the undifferentiated mass of people with mediocre grades) + average interviewing + poor bidding. One thing I did not do was really go out and try to press people on what firms were in my grade range. That means asking follow up questions, getting multiple perspectives, and not taking anything at face value.

For example, I partially bid on a home market where I have pretty good ties. I asked a 2L student with a job in the market what grades he had. Not very good, he said. After OCI, I found out to him "not very good" grades apparently meant top quarter. I just didn't press him on what his grades were because you're not supposed to ask people about those things.
I ended up wasting about 16 interviews on that market with 0 callbacks.

And if you have work experience you get a huge boost. I would rather be around bottom 1/3 with no work experience than median without it. Language skills were huge too. I know someone with two B- range grades, thought to be the kiss of death, who snagged a job with a V20 on the basis of knowing an in-demand language.

Basically, if you look at your resume and the only noteworthy thing about you is "I go to X top law school" you are in serious trouble- because the other few dozen people they are seeing that week also went to X top law school.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:09 pm

.

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:06 pm

do you guys think it would be harder to trade up to v20~50ish (NYC) having done mostly litigation as a 2L SA in a regional market (NLJ around 100-125)?

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Has anyone tried cold-emailing alumni? My CSO keeps pushing me to do it but I'm not sure it's ever going to pay off especially at this late date. I think that's all they really have for me.


I tried 1,200 the summer before OCI. Got 60 coffee meetings out of that and maybe 2-3 interviews. At this late a date, I would say doing it just to network pre-3L OCI.

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:54 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Has anyone tried cold-emailing alumni? My CSO keeps pushing me to do it but I'm not sure it's ever going to pay off especially at this late date. I think that's all they really have for me.


I tried 1,200 the summer before OCI. Got 60 coffee meetings out of that and maybe 2-3 interviews. At this late a date, I would say doing it just to network pre-3L OCI.
LawIdiot86 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Has anyone tried cold-emailing alumni? My CSO keeps pushing me to do it but I'm not sure it's ever going to pay off especially at this late date. I think that's all they really have for me.


I tried 1,200 the summer before OCI. Got 60 coffee meetings out of that and maybe 2-3 interviews. At this late a date, I would say doing it just to network pre-3L OCI.


Alot of people tend to be down on networking, but isn't there something to be said for knowing at least some people rather than none?

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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I would probably chalk it up to the combination of no WE (this is huge when you are part of the undifferentiated mass of people with mediocre grades) + average interviewing + poor bidding. One thing I did not do was really go out and try to press people on what firms were in my grade range. That means asking follow up questions, getting multiple perspectives, and not taking anything at face value.

For example, I partially bid on a home market where I have pretty good ties. I asked a 2L student with a job in the market what grades he had. Not very good, he said. After OCI, I found out to him "not very good" grades apparently meant top quarter. I just didn't press him on what his grades were because you're not supposed to ask people about those things.
I ended up wasting about 16 interviews on that market with 0 callbacks.

And if you have work experience you get a huge boost. I would rather be around bottom 1/3 with no work experience than median without it. Language skills were huge too. I know someone with two B- range grades, thought to be the kiss of death, who snagged a job with a V20 on the basis of knowing an in-demand language.

Basically, if you look at your resume and the only noteworthy thing about you is "I go to X top law school" you are in serious trouble- because the other few dozen people they are seeing that week also went to X top law school.


Was the "in demand" language something learnable like Spanish? Or was it something like Mandarin?

LawIdiot86
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Re: Jerbless 3Ls, how we doing?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Has anyone tried cold-emailing alumni? My CSO keeps pushing me to do it but I'm not sure it's ever going to pay off especially at this late date. I think that's all they really have for me.


I tried 1,200 the summer before OCI. Got 60 coffee meetings out of that and maybe 2-3 interviews. At this late a date, I would say doing it just to network pre-3L OCI.
LawIdiot86 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Has anyone tried cold-emailing alumni? My CSO keeps pushing me to do it but I'm not sure it's ever going to pay off especially at this late date. I think that's all they really have for me.


I tried 1,200 the summer before OCI. Got 60 coffee meetings out of that and maybe 2-3 interviews. At this late a date, I would say doing it just to network pre-3L OCI.


Alot of people tend to be down on networking, but isn't there something to be said for knowing at least some people rather than none?


There is nearly nothing to be said for knowing people because the people you know, know hundreds of people. There is something to be said to being close friends with people or having some personal connection.




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