Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

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ahnhub
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby ahnhub » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:48 pm

rad lulz wrote:
ahnhub wrote:So I'm wondering how 70% success at NYU ---> 55% doing a summer SA
and also how 69% summer SA at Chicago ---> 45% actually landing at a big law firm.

Not everyone participates in OCI bro, plus some of those people go on to do clerkships. These numbers are dangerous sans AIII.


For 70% of OCI participants to get something, but only 55% to actually do an SA, only 80% of the class would have had to participate in OCI. Even at PI-focused schools it seems at least 90% of the class ends up at least taking a stab at it. I was just saying if two schools had very similar OCI results, you'd expect the final results to look more similar than they do. I just wanted to see if someone could give me a clearer answer as to why the numbers don't match up that well.

But I didn't realize 0Ls are technically not supposed to post here. So I will stop.
Last edited by ahnhub on Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rad lulz
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby rad lulz » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:54 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:16 pm

How has Veyron not poasted in this thread yet?

ETA: Anon by mistake; this is Wholigan

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20130312
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby 20130312 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:24 pm

ahnhub wrote:But I didn't realize 0Ls are technically not supposed to post here. So I will stop.


The referenced thread doesn't say 0Ls can't post here. It says you can't ask questions here.

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wiseowl
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby wiseowl » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:33 pm

rad lulz wrote:
ahnhub wrote:So I'm wondering how 70% success at NYU ---> 55% doing a summer SA
and also how 69% summer SA at Chicago ---> 45% actually landing at a big law firm.

Not everyone participates in OCI bro, plus some of those people go on to do clerkships. These numbers are dangerous sans AIII.


They're dangerous for places like Yale. AIII isnt going to suddenly stop making Michigan look like a regional T30 for that year.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:34 pm

Pretty interesting. I'm surprised by the gap between Columbia and Chicago, and that NYU and Chicago are even, since NYU sends so many people to PI jobs and Chicago sends almost none. Maybe Chicago puts enough people in clerkships to make up the difference.

Impressed by USC.

Cardozo is looking pretty good, relatively speaking. Surprising that it's placing almost twice as many people in the NLJ250 as Brooklyn.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby JusticeHarlan » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:36 pm

MrAnon wrote:everyone seems real quick to say this year is better than last year. newsflash: people have been saying that each of the last 3 years. this list is the end result. Its like the "it won't happen to me" phenomenon extended into eternity.

You tso mad. And tso wrong.

First, we have data that says class of 2012 had bigger summer classes than 2011 did. (And solid offer rates, too)

Second, if you think two or three years ago people were saying things were getting better, you had your head stuck in sand.

Class of 2012 was better than 2011. We'll see if 2013 is better than 2012. My guess is yes, but we don't know yet.

keg411
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby keg411 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:43 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:
MrAnon wrote:everyone seems real quick to say this year is better than last year. newsflash: people have been saying that each of the last 3 years. this list is the end result. Its like the "it won't happen to me" phenomenon extended into eternity.

You tso mad. And tso wrong.

First, we have data that says class of 2012 had bigger summer classes than 2011 did. (And solid offer rates, too)

Second, if you think two or three years ago people were saying things were getting better, you had your head stuck in sand.

Class of 2012 was better than 2011. We'll see if 2013 is better than 2012. My guess is yes, but we don't know yet.


+1. Everyone who's been reading this board long enough knew that the c/o 2011 numbers were going to be super, super brutal. This is also the year the Chicago market got decimated and the Michigan CSO fucked up royally. I expect the 2012 numbers to be better than this, and the 2013 numbers to be even better.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby JusticeHarlan » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:01 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:Damn UIUC and Emory got rockedddd.

Chi and ATL; coincidence?

Also: Georgia, Georgia State, and Loyola Chicago dropped out of the top 50 schools this year.
(Edit: Iowa too, don't know if that's considered a "Chicago" school or not.)

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:08 pm

Class of 2011 graduate here who went to a T6. These numbers are positively shocking. These numbers are bad, but I find it hard to believe that half of my class didn't end up at a firm.

There are still ways to question the accuracy of this data. For one, how do they find out which Class of 2011s work at which firms? Websites? If that's the case, then many New York firms will be underreported, because most of the Class of 2011 isn't admitted to practice at this point and is therefore not on their firms' websites. There are exceptions, of course. Many firms list law clerks, but still many don't. S&C is one example, and the omission of S&C from these numbers would have an enormous effect on HLS, CLS, and NYU's numbers.

This wouldn't have a similar effect on other markets and other schools, as they conduct bar admission differently. All of my friends in Chicago biglaw are now admitted to practice, as are all my friends in CA. That would explain the comparative high ranking of Berkeley and Stanford.


Nevertheless, if these numbers are accurate, it just goes to show just how useless statements like, "well all my friends are employed" truly are. You never know until you see the actual numbers.

run26.2
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby run26.2 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:11 pm

descartesb4thehorse wrote:Weird how Boalt performed so relatively good and USC had one up on Mich.

Agreed that the Boalt # was higher than I expected. My impression for the last 2 years' OCIs was that hiring was down at Boalt, so that may have informed my expectation.

de5igual
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby de5igual » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Class of 2011 graduate here who went to a T6. These numbers are positively shocking. These numbers are bad, but I find it hard to believe that half of my class didn't end up at a firm.

There are still ways to question the accuracy of this data. For one, how do they find out which Class of 2011s work at which firms? Websites? If that's the case, then many New York firms will be underreported, because most of the Class of 2011 isn't admitted to practice at this point and is therefore not on their firms' websites. There are exceptions, of course. Many firms list law clerks, but still many don't. S&C is one example, and the omission of S&C from these numbers would have an enormous effect on HLS, CLS, and NYU's numbers.

This wouldn't have a similar effect on other markets and other schools, as they conduct bar admission differently. All of my friends in Chicago biglaw are now admitted to practice, as are all my friends in CA. That would explain the comparative high ranking of Berkeley and Stanford.


Nevertheless, if these numbers are accurate, it just goes to show just how useless statements like, "well all my friends are employed" truly are. You never know until you see the actual numbers.


these are the numbers reported by the firms

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Antilles Haven
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Antilles Haven » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:17 pm

Blindmelon wrote:Damn UIUC and Emory got rockedddd.

TBF, Emory dropped from 24th overall to 26th overall. Relatively it wasn't that bad.

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Mr. Somebody
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Mr. Somebody » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:17 pm

because of the way these are calculated you'd also expect to see a lot more variation at the schools with a smaller class size.

At chicago 10 more associates and they'd be over 50% and top 3.

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romothesavior
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby romothesavior » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:25 pm

This was expected. Class of 2011 represents the absolute rock bottom. C/o 2012 numbers should see a bit of an increase, and c/o 2013 should see an increase on that. Law school is still a bad investment for most people, and things are relatively stagnant across the board, but better than this slaughterfest. My somewhat educated guess is that the data for my class (c/o 2013) will look like the c/o 2010 data, maybe a bit better. And the T14s seem to be doing pretty well right now.

So in sum, law school still sucks for most people in terms of a financial investment, but this data is more of a reflection of where we've been than where we're at or where we're going.

rad lulz
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby rad lulz » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:34 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby romothesavior » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:35 pm

I wonder how much our transfer and LLM ---> J.D. transfer class kills us. I mean, 315 grads in 2011? That class had like 250-260 to start as 1Ls I'm pretty sure. My class started out at 274 and now we're over 320. We just take a TON of transfers and have a pretty sizeable foreign J.D. class. It's good for the school collecting dolla dolla bills, but not so hot for our NLJ 250 data. I know some of those foreign J.D.s go back home and get jobs in firms overseas, so that's not really represented in our data.

I'm just rambling (and probably rationalizing a bit) but I can't think this huge graduating class helps us much, especially when it's a 20%+ increase in class size from 1L to 3L year.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby rad lulz » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:38 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby romothesavior » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:40 pm

rad lulz wrote:
romothesavior wrote:This was expected. Class of 2011 represents the absolute rock bottom. C/o 2012 numbers should see a bit of an increase, and c/o 2013 should see an increase on that. Law school is still a bad investment for most people, and things are relatively stagnant across the board, but better than this slaughterfest. My somewhat educated guess is that the data for my class (c/o 2013) will look like the c/o 2010 data, maybe a bit better. And the T14s seem to be doing pretty well right now.

So in sum, law school still sucks for most people in terms of a financial investment, but this data is more of a reflection of where we've been than where we're at or where we're going.

I'd also hazard a guess that for 2Ls this year it will look like c/o 2010 barring an unexpected string of no-offers.

So try not to play Edward 40hands and cut anyone with a razor at firm receptions. Prolly would result in a ding.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:42 pm

I think they get the firms to fill out a survey.


I'm pretty sure this isn't true, but open to proof of being wrong. I distinctly remember in prior years that the methodology explicitly mentioned consulting websites and nothing more.

Anyway, it's just boggling to see more than half of my class not at a big firm. It just doesn't comport with my experiences/my knowledge of the numbers.

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Dignan
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Dignan » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:42 pm

run26.2 wrote:
descartesb4thehorse wrote:Weird how Boalt performed so relatively good and USC had one up on Mich.

Agreed that the Boalt # was higher than I expected. My impression for the last 2 years' OCIs was that hiring was down at Boalt, so that may have informed my expectation.

I'm now a 2L at Boalt. When I was a 0L, the conventional wisdom on TLS was that you needed to be top-third (or even top quarter) to have a strong shot at big law. If you were median or below, you were screwed. The California economy, posters explained, was collapsing, and BoalTTT was basically a regional school that couldn't place well into markets outside of the state.

When I got to Boalt, I was surprised to meet all of these Class of 2011 students who had jobs at big firms despite middling grades. And students who targeted out-of-state markets (NY, DC) seemed to find good jobs. Just based on anecdotes, it didn't seem like Boalt students were having a harder time landing biglaw jobs than comparable students at UVA or NYU. So I'm not surprised by the numbers. But it's interesting how the vocal opinions of a few posters on TLS can soon become conventional wisdom, and then people are surprised to find that Boalt isn't collapsing relative to its peers.

rad lulz
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby rad lulz » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:44 pm

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
I think they get the firms to fill out a survey.


I'm pretty sure this isn't true, but open to proof of being wrong. I distinctly remember in prior years that the methodology explicitly mentioned consulting websites and nothing more.

Anyway, it's just boggling to see more than half of my class not at a big firm. It just doesn't comport with my experiences/my knowledge of the numbers.


Anon above here. Looks like you're right, radlaw:

Data for the Go-To Law Schools special report is provided by law firms surveyed for The National Law Journal's NLJ 250, our annual survey of the nation's 250 largest law firms. We also queried the law schools for hiring data. Ranks were determined by the percentage of 2010 graduates who took jobs as first-year associates at NLJ 250 law firms. We determined the percentage by using the 2010 juris doctor graduating class size provided by each school. The ranking does not reflect law school graduates who took jobs as judicial clerks after graduation.


Still, maybe some firms didn't report to the survey?

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby bk1 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Still, maybe some firms didn't report to the survey?


Maybe (though I doubt it), but if that were true I would expect it to be true in every NLJ250 rankings (meaning that its impact on this year's list would be the same as previous years).

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:56 pm

bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Still, maybe some firms didn't report to the survey?


Maybe (though I doubt it), but if that were true I would expect it to be true in every NLJ250 rankings (meaning that its impact on this year's list would be the same as previous years).


I mean just look at the "favorite schools" list. Clearly, if more firms had reported, they'd have a better list? But that's a supposition on my part...




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