Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

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keg411
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby keg411 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:(6) OCS basically hid behind their desks when students weren't getting offers. I know other OCSs that call firms on behalf of students who are in callback purgatory, who hustles through their connections for more interviews (and was not a sham; it actually worked), who offered comprehensive and constructive sessions for helping students get jobs.


FWIW, I do know for a fact Michigan has fixed this one, although you have to be super proactive w/OCS and some of the counselors are far better than others. (And btw, DF, I probably would've gotten the same job at NW as I got at M -- I'm just bitching because the numbers look so terrible).

I do, however, agree that there are still other problems here (for instance, we get far fewer bids/interviews than peer schools). And same goes for the aggregated data and not getting the number of interviews, etc. Also, I do kind of hate that bidding becomes more about "gaming the system" rather than "figuring out which firms you would be the best 'fit' at", but I'd guess that's a problem everywhere and not solely with Michigan.

However, I'm not surprised at all how bad the overall c/o 2011 numbers are -- I've been following OCI at top schools since my sister went through it in 2008, and I've pretty much watched the entire ITE debacle unfold.

rad lulz
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby rad lulz » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:55 pm

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col.faith
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby col.faith » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:28 pm

f0bolous wrote:jebus effin christ. this thread = proof that law students suffer from major ass-burgers


Oh boy, what have I done... I only meant to share the grief and sympathy(and perhaps rage) we have for our dear class of 2011 graduates. The result of people coming out exposing their own aspergers was somewhat unforeseeable.

Anonymous User
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:32 pm

Also, I do kind of hate that bidding becomes more about "gaming the system" rather than "figuring out which firms you would be the best 'fit' at", but I'd guess that's a problem everywhere and not solely with Michigan.


There is no way to figure out what the "best fit" is as a bidder. The only way one should bid for OCI is to maximize the number of interviews they get at firms they have a legitimate shot at; only after that should you worry about "fit." That's why, in my post above, I mentioned the T6 anecdote of getting 30 interviews. Clearly, a person with 30 screeners has a better shot at securing an offer than a person with 11.

rad lulz
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby rad lulz » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:32 pm

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Old Gregg
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:34 pm

I bet HLS is the only school that had enough individual leverage to make S&C reconsider. Maybe if you get NYU and CLS together to ban S&C that would work, but it's hard to imagine many schools where this move would do anything except harm their own students.


Nah, I legitimately believe that any school that sends a decent number of students every year to S&C could have pulled off what HLS did. Outside of those schools, I also think YLS and SLS could have pulled it off too.

keg411
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby keg411 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Also, I do kind of hate that bidding becomes more about "gaming the system" rather than "figuring out which firms you would be the best 'fit' at", but I'd guess that's a problem everywhere and not solely with Michigan.


There is no way to figure out what the "best fit" is as a bidder. The only way one should bid for OCI is to maximize the number of interviews they get at firms they have a legitimate shot at; only after that should you worry about "fit." That's why, in my post above, I mentioned the T6 anecdote of getting 30 interviews. Clearly, a person with 30 screeners has a better shot at securing an offer than a person with 11.


I know that. I went through OCI. I meant that I wish you didn't have to worry about maximizing interviews and could just pick the firms you wanted to interview with. It's an "ideal world"/"wishful thinking" more than anything that's actually realistic or would help people doing OCI in the future.

To describe what I mean better: instead of bidding on 50 firms and getting 30 interviews, just picking the 30 firms you want to interview with and getting interviews with all 30 firms without having to worry about ranking, ordering, etc. In that type of situation you could focus more on the firms rather then on any type of strategy. But it's all ideal world/wishful thinking/never going to happen.

rad lulz
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby rad lulz » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:59 pm

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09042014
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby 09042014 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:15 pm

You can't really blame the number of interviews on the OCS. That is really more a function of how much interest firms have in the school.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby JusticeHarlan » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:22 pm

ahnhub wrote:
JusticeHarlan wrote:2009 was a weird year. I'd bet the discrepancy has to do with Penn counting people who got offers out of their summer programs (technically got jobs, in a sense) but were deferred, while the firms didn't count those people.


The deferrals thing sorta makes sense, except I had no idea that many people were deferred in 2009, and also a few schools had numbers match up closely that year (NU reported 60% to NLJ's 55.9%).

Anyways, I'm not gonna beat a dead horse. I've concluded that NLJ f***ed up their count and under-reported for many, many schools including Penn, NYU and Chicago in 2009. They also under-reported NYU by 10+ points in 2010.

I mean, I wouldn't be so quick to attribute any discrepancies to NLJ instead of to the schools - am I right in saying that each discrepancy has the schools placing better than the firm survey would otherwise indicate? To me, the more likely conclusion is that the schools are making themselves look better, not that NLJ is consistently miscounting.

(I'd also guess that different schools having different sized discrepancies comes from disparate ways the schools counted deferred associates: those that got paid by their firm during their deferred year might have been counted at all schools but those who didn't get paid while deferred may only have been counted at some schools, etc. This is rank speculation, though, so I won't go on.)

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Old Gregg
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:24 pm

Desert Fox wrote:You can't really blame the number of interviews on the OCS. That is really more a function of how much interest firms have in the school.


You can blame the number of bids you're allotted.

Berkeley, for instance, gives unlimited bids.

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IAFG
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby IAFG » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:25 pm

As for the discrepancies, could it be NLJ250 is counting from a different date in time than schools? I know schools count 9 months out. Though I don't know that there is tons of movement btw firms after graduation.

rad lulz
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby rad lulz » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:26 pm

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rad lulz
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby rad lulz » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:27 pm

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Old Gregg
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:29 pm

A little bit of a stretch for a school to convince more partners and associates to travel for some interviews. If you want to maximize interviews, make it easy for the firms and host job fairs. I don't know why schools like Michigan don't hold an NYC job fair.

09042014
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby 09042014 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:31 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:You can't really blame the number of interviews on the OCS. That is really more a function of how much interest firms have in the school.


You can blame the number of bids you're allotted.

Berkeley, for instance, gives unlimited bids.


But bids are useless if you can't actually get more firms with it. I know at Northwestern we got 50, but after bid number 20 you could only get firms nobody wanted, and after 30 there was literally nothing but small market firms or IP. All it did was let people who decided to bid on a bunch of markets they have no ties to get a bunch of useless interviews.

30 bids is more than enough when the average person is only getting 11 interviews.

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Lincoln
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Lincoln » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:32 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:You can't really blame the number of interviews on the OCS. That is really more a function of how much interest firms have in the school.


You can blame the number of bids you're allotted.

Berkeley, for instance, gives unlimited bids.


At least from my experience, the total number of bids is almost irrelevant. The chances that you will get any of the firms you bid really low is small, anyway.

What is relevant is knowing the total number of interview slots. I know at our OCI a lot of people bid on a major firm because they historically were not very grade selective. The firm, however, had only 10 interview slots. As a result, even some people who ranked the firm first or second missed out on getting a screener. If they had used that bid on a firm with 60 or 80 slots, they would have been guaranteed a screener. If you don't know the number of interview slots per firm, the chances of making such mistakes increase significantly.

rad lulz
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby rad lulz » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:38 pm

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Anonymous User
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:39 pm

30 bids is more than enough when the average person is only getting 11 interviews.


That's the problem. 30 bids was enough pre-ITE, when they got you 18-19 interviews on average. 11 screeners is not enough in any universe, IMO.

rad lulz
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby rad lulz » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:41 pm

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09042014
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby 09042014 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
30 bids is more than enough when the average person is only getting 11 interviews.


That's the problem. 30 bids was enough pre-ITE, when they got you 18-19 interviews on average. 11 screeners is not enough in any universe, IMO.


What is the school going to do about it? The firms don't want to do more interviews.

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IAFG
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby IAFG » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
30 bids is more than enough when the average person is only getting 11 interviews.


That's the problem. 30 bids was enough pre-ITE, when they got you 18-19 interviews on average. 11 screeners is not enough in any universe, IMO.

at a non-preselect school, maybe, but then Seattle, for example, only has 28 NALP firms. Depending on your target market, 11 screeners may be a ton.

Anonymous User
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:01 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
30 bids is more than enough when the average person is only getting 11 interviews.


That's the problem. 30 bids was enough pre-ITE, when they got you 18-19 interviews on average. 11 screeners is not enough in any universe, IMO.


What is the school going to do about it? The firms don't want to do more interviews.


I honestly believe that if a school like Michigan had more bids, students would receive more interviews. Not 30, but definitely a few more.

ahnhub
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby ahnhub » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:04 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote: I mean, I wouldn't be so quick to attribute any discrepancies to NLJ instead of to the schools - am I right in saying that each discrepancy has the schools placing better than the firm survey would otherwise indicate? To me, the more likely conclusion is that the schools are making themselves look better, not that NLJ is consistently miscounting.

(I'd also guess that different schools having different sized discrepancies comes from disparate ways the schools counted deferred associates: those that got paid by their firm during their deferred year might have been counted at all schools but those who didn't get paid while deferred may only have been counted at some schools, etc. This is rank speculation, though, so I won't go on.)


I would be inclined to view the schools' numbers with more skepticism, except that the numbers match up very closely all through the years up until 2009, and then for the most part match up again in 2010 (with one very puzzling exception--NYU). If it was a generalized tendency to over-report or a conspiracy to inflate numbers, I'm thinking that wouldn't be the case. Also, I'm assuming every school in the country would choose to count a deferred associate as employed for reporting purposes. Something funny happened when NLJ decided to calculate numbers with c/o 2009-2010, and I guess it isn't that surprising, considering what a mess the legal hiring scene was back then.

My takeaway is to view the NLJ placement numbers with even more skepticism. I think the by far the best way to try to figure out what your chances at Biglaw at are a particular school is to see what percentage of a class took 2L summer jobs with firms, no?
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rad lulz
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby rad lulz » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:04 pm

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