Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

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bjsesq
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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby bjsesq » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:53 pm

r6_philly wrote:I would trade 2 spots in the rankings to have a job.


I would go to a TTTT if it meant I was assured of a job before hand. Law school is a means to an end, period. Fuck a ranking. Too bad the rankings generally mirror actual job prospects.
Last edited by bjsesq on Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Old Gregg » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:54 pm

True but many firms cut below their needs and were faced with many problems because of it.


Not really. A few did, yes. To say that they were "faced with many problems because of it" is stretching the truth. They just had to do 3L OCI...

If there is a reduction in class size, it will not be as significant as the one we saw previously.


If only because: classes are already not as big (barring the traditional heavyweights).

But if you don't think what's happening with the world, especially in Europe, can harm the economy to such a significant extent that hiring is worse than OCI in 2009, you're delusional.

Really: Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Sherwood2014 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:59 pm

Wholigan wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Could these numbers influence the USNWR rankings?

IMHO: HYS is a lock no matter what―never got the “S,” but I figure that is just the way it is, period.

The T-6 does occasionally change (i.e., Bloat freefalling 6-7-9). If the “Go To Schools” numbers were enormously imperative Penn and Cornell would already be T-6. Unlikely (as in impossible) that any school can jump into the T-6 from the 13th position. Penn at #7, seemingly has a legitimate shot.

The most stable of the current T-6 is [likely] Columbia, problem is that would mean 5 of the Top 6 are Ivy. . .hard to see that happening. Of course 5 of the 2011 top 6 “Go To” are Ivy.

I am sure it will be pointed out that numerous factors go into the rankings aside from a school securing its grads NLJ-250 positions.

Actually, numerous factors do go into the rankings, but ability to secure grads NLJ-250 positions is not one of them.


If this is true, then why do people who try to argue a school from one T14 tier is better than one from another for firm employment always get smacked down with "peer schools are peer"? This is three straight years for example, that NU is higher than Michigan on this list, and Penn is higher than NYU (and significantly higher for the last two.) If one's objective is just to get a biglaw job, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider schools like these two that have consistently outperformed USNWR over ones from a higher "tier" within the T14.


+. Makes sense.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:04 pm

Wholigan wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Could these numbers influence the USNWR rankings?

IMHO: HYS is a lock no matter what―never got the “S,” but I figure that is just the way it is, period.

The T-6 does occasionally change (i.e., Bloat freefalling 6-7-9). If the “Go To Schools” numbers were enormously imperative Penn and Cornell would already be T-6. Unlikely (as in impossible) that any school can jump into the T-6 from the 13th position. Penn at #7, seemingly has a legitimate shot.

The most stable of the current T-6 is [likely] Columbia, problem is that would mean 5 of the Top 6 are Ivy. . .hard to see that happening. Of course 5 of the 2011 top 6 “Go To” are Ivy.

I am sure it will be pointed out that numerous factors go into the rankings aside from a school securing its grads NLJ-250 positions.

Actually, numerous factors do go into the rankings, but ability to secure grads NLJ-250 positions is not one of them.


If this is true, then why do people who try to argue a school from one T14 tier is better than one from another for firm employment always get smacked down with "peer schools are peer"? This is three straight years for example, that NU is higher than Michigan on this list, and Penn is higher than NYU (and significantly higher for the last two.) If one's objective is just to get a biglaw job, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider schools like these two that have consistently outperformed USNWR over ones from a higher "tier" within the T14.

My point is that there is no way the NLJ numbers will influence USNWR rankings (which is what the previous poster was suggesting) because the USNWR rankings do not take NLJ hiring into consideration.

In any event, it's not unreasonable to take these numbers into account in choosing a school, but it is dangerous to give them too much weight. All they measure is the number of people going to NLJ 250 firms; they don't say why. Despite the TLS echo chamber, nowhere near 100% of students at these schools want these jobs. I would really not give much credence to placement differences of, say, less than 10%.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby booboo » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:10 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
True but many firms cut below their needs and were faced with many problems because of it.


Not really. A few did, yes. To say that they were "faced with many problems because of it" is stretching the truth. They just had to do 3L OCI...


It has altered hiring plans for many years and has made Law school/law firm relationships sour. 3L OCI was a joke, at least for this respective class. Though many problems may be overstating it.

If there is a reduction in class size, it will not be as significant as the one we saw previously.


Fresh Prince wrote:If only because: classes are already not as big (barring the traditional heavyweights).

But if you don't think what's happening with the world, especially in Europe, can harm the economy to such a significant extent that hiring is worse than OCI in 2009, you're delusional.

Really: Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.


That's exactly why. Hence why the number won't be going down as much.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Wholigan » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:12 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Wholigan wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Could these numbers influence the USNWR rankings?

IMHO: HYS is a lock no matter what―never got the “S,” but I figure that is just the way it is, period.

The T-6 does occasionally change (i.e., Bloat freefalling 6-7-9). If the “Go To Schools” numbers were enormously imperative Penn and Cornell would already be T-6. Unlikely (as in impossible) that any school can jump into the T-6 from the 13th position. Penn at #7, seemingly has a legitimate shot.

The most stable of the current T-6 is [likely] Columbia, problem is that would mean 5 of the Top 6 are Ivy. . .hard to see that happening. Of course 5 of the 2011 top 6 “Go To” are Ivy.

I am sure it will be pointed out that numerous factors go into the rankings aside from a school securing its grads NLJ-250 positions.

Actually, numerous factors do go into the rankings, but ability to secure grads NLJ-250 positions is not one of them.


If this is true, then why do people who try to argue a school from one T14 tier is better than one from another for firm employment always get smacked down with "peer schools are peer"? This is three straight years for example, that NU is higher than Michigan on this list, and Penn is higher than NYU (and significantly higher for the last two.) If one's objective is just to get a biglaw job, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider schools like these two that have consistently outperformed USNWR over ones from a higher "tier" within the T14.

My point is that there is no way the NLJ numbers will influence USNWR rankings (which is what the previous poster was suggesting) because the USNWR rankings do not take NLJ hiring into consideration.

In any event, it's not unreasonable to take these numbers into account in choosing a school, but it is dangerous to give them too much weight. All they measure is the number of people going to NLJ 250 firms; they don't say why. Despite the TLS echo chamber, nowhere near 100% of students at these schools want these jobs. I would really not give much credence to placement differences of, say, less than 10%.


I agree it won't influence the rankings. I just think that some in the "echo chamber" need to realize this when they look at everything for the rest of the year in terms of USNWR. I mean, it seems like I see this thing in every thread like it's the gospel truth for all purposes: HYS>>>>>>>CCN>>>>MVP>B>DCN>>>G.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby r6_philly » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:15 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
In any event, it's not unreasonable to take these numbers into account in choosing a school, but it is dangerous to give them too much weight. All they measure is the number of people going to NLJ 250 firms; they don't say why. Despite the TLS echo chamber, nowhere near 100% of students at these schools want these jobs. I would really not give much credence to placement differences of, say, less than 10%.


People who want these jobs would be more influenced by these numbers than others. Also these jobs can be a safety net when people don't do well enough to get in USAO or DOJ or whatever other prestigious non-firm jobs they want. It's much better to have NJL250 jobs as a "backup" than not having it.

What does academic reputation get you when you can't land that dream job?

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:18 pm

Wholigan wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Could these numbers influence the USNWR rankings?

IMHO: HYS is a lock no matter what―never got the “S,” but I figure that is just the way it is, period.

The T-6 does occasionally change (i.e., Bloat freefalling 6-7-9). If the “Go To Schools” numbers were enormously imperative Penn and Cornell would already be T-6. Unlikely (as in impossible) that any school can jump into the T-6 from the 13th position. Penn at #7, seemingly has a legitimate shot.

The most stable of the current T-6 is [likely] Columbia, problem is that would mean 5 of the Top 6 are Ivy. . .hard to see that happening. Of course 5 of the 2011 top 6 “Go To” are Ivy.

I am sure it will be pointed out that numerous factors go into the rankings aside from a school securing its grads NLJ-250 positions.

Actually, numerous factors do go into the rankings, but ability to secure grads NLJ-250 positions is not one of them.


If this is true, then why do people who try to argue a school from one T14 tier is better than one from another for firm employment always get smacked down with "peer schools are peer"? This is three straight years for example, that NU is higher than Michigan on this list, and Penn is higher than NYU (and significantly higher for the last two.) If one's objective is just to get a biglaw job, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider schools like these two that have consistently outperformed USNWR over ones from a higher "tier" within the T14.


There are other variables at play. Schools that favor work experience will do better if that variable isn't held consistent in the comparison. Schools in the NYC metro area will obviously place better into NLJ250 firms when upwards of three-quarters of their classes target NYC. Compare that with other T14 schools that have a quarter of the class targeting NYC and many of the rest interested in regions of the country with less NLJ250 firms. Of course Columbia/Penn/NYU are going to place somewhat better. There are also placement benefits to a smaller class size.

Comparing NLJ250+AIII clerkships over a 3-4 year period is still probably the best way to determine relative placement ability (outside of HYS), but using it to distinguish schools that are in the same relative tier is probably a waste of time.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:18 pm

r6_philly wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
In any event, it's not unreasonable to take these numbers into account in choosing a school, but it is dangerous to give them too much weight. All they measure is the number of people going to NLJ 250 firms; they don't say why. Despite the TLS echo chamber, nowhere near 100% of students at these schools want these jobs. I would really not give much credence to placement differences of, say, less than 10%.


People who want these jobs would be more influenced by these numbers than others. Also these jobs can be a safety net when people don't do well enough to get in USAO or DOJ or whatever other prestigious non-firm jobs they want. It's much better to have NJL250 jobs as a "backup" than not having it.

What does academic reputation get you when you can't land that dream job?

What I'm saying is that you can't tell how precisely these numbers correlate with a school's actual placement power. (And so their utility is somewhat limited even to students who do want NLJ jobs.) Clearly they're good enough to be a rough guide but at the margins they don't tell you that much.
Last edited by dixiecupdrinking on Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Curious1 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:19 pm

r6_philly wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
In any event, it's not unreasonable to take these numbers into account in choosing a school, but it is dangerous to give them too much weight. All they measure is the number of people going to NLJ 250 firms; they don't say why. Despite the TLS echo chamber, nowhere near 100% of students at these schools want these jobs. I would really not give much credence to placement differences of, say, less than 10%.


People who want these jobs would be more influenced by these numbers than others. Also these jobs can be a safety net when people don't do well enough to get in USAO or DOJ or whatever other prestigious non-firm jobs they want. It's much better to have NJL250 jobs as a "backup" than not having it.

What does academic reputation get you when you can't land that dream job?


Yes but (I'm sure you agree) it doesn't make sense to ever turn down Yale for Penn, as you would do from looking at these stats alone.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby r6_philly » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:23 pm

Curious1 wrote:Yes but (I'm sure you agree) it doesn't make sense to ever turn down Yale for Penn, as you would do from looking at these stats alone.


I suppose we should limit the comparison to peer schools. I'd turn NYU down for Penn.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Curious1 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:25 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Curious1 wrote:Yes but (I'm sure you agree) it doesn't make sense to ever turn down Yale for Penn, as you would do from looking at these stats alone.


I suppose we should limit the comparison to peer schools. I'd turn NYU down for Penn.


That I can agree with, and there are other reasons to do that anyway.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby PARTY » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:25 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Curious1 wrote:I'd turn NYU down for Penn.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby 071816 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:30 pm

Can we please get a CC N vs. CCN debate going on up in here? Thanks.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby IAFG » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:32 pm

I am the biggest "peer schools are peers" troll around, and that's because I know that not 100% of people at T14s want NLJ250 jobs. For example:

1) JDMBAs often want business. I know many consider law a fallback.
2) JDs sometimes want business. I know of at least one person who turned down V5 for not-law.
3) There are people who want gov't, DA, public interest, academia. A lot of those people even do OCI, but half-heartedly.
4) Some people would rather work for a non-NLJ250 in a small or midsize city, or for a boutique or specialty firm. I know someone who took his top 5% grades back to a rural area and is at a $90k paying "big firm" for his small state. I know someone else who turned down multiple V20 offers for a non-NLJ250 boutique.

When the self-selection of 10 people can move your relative placement significantly, it's dumb to try to use these numbers to show that one school is "better" at getting their kids into big firms than other schools.*

*Based on small year-to-year fluctuations or absent the context of self-selection and the non-NLJ250 options the students at these schools have.
Last edited by IAFG on Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby HeavenWood » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:33 pm

Curious1 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
In any event, it's not unreasonable to take these numbers into account in choosing a school, but it is dangerous to give them too much weight. All they measure is the number of people going to NLJ 250 firms; they don't say why. Despite the TLS echo chamber, nowhere near 100% of students at these schools want these jobs. I would really not give much credence to placement differences of, say, less than 10%.


People who want these jobs would be more influenced by these numbers than others. Also these jobs can be a safety net when people don't do well enough to get in USAO or DOJ or whatever other prestigious non-firm jobs they want. It's much better to have NJL250 jobs as a "backup" than not having it.

What does academic reputation get you when you can't land that dream job?


Yes but (I'm sure you agree) it doesn't make sense to ever turn down Yale for Penn, as you would do from looking at these stats alone.

Maybe it would if you got a Levy ;).

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby rayiner » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:33 pm

I don't think the NLJ 250 rankings are useful in comparing schools within the broad groupings (T14, T25, etc).

There are two take-aways from the NLJ250 list:

1) NLJ250 placement falls off dramatically as you go down the large tiers of the rankings (40-55% in most of the T14, ~15-20% in the T25, below 10% everywhere else).

2) There is a lot of year-to-year variability within the T14. Cornell was #2 last year, for example. Moreover, there isn't much of a correlation between USNWR ranking and placement within the usually pretty narrow range of the T14. Market and class size matters a lot more than ranking within the T14. CLS and NYU do well not because they're "T6" but because NYC has huge class sizes. Penn does well because its on the smaller side and heavily targets NYC. NU does well because it's got a good pipeline into both Chicago and New York. I think Michigan's size and lack of proximity to a major city do hurt it in crisis situations like ITE.
Last edited by rayiner on Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby r6_philly » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:35 pm

IAFG wrote:When the self-selection of 10 people can move your relative placement significantly, it's dumb to try to use these numbers to show that one school is "better" at getting their kids into big firms than other schools.*

*Based on small year-to-year fluctuations.


To raise NYU 15% would take 70 people.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby reformed calvinist » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:38 pm

bjsesq wrote:
r6_philly wrote:I would trade 2 spots in the rankings to have a job.


I would go to a TTTT if it meant I was assured of a job before hand. Law school is a means to an end, period. Fuck a ranking. Too bad the rankings generally mirror actual job prospects.


QFT. Rankings are highly correlated to job prospects though, yeah. But absolutely. The point of law school is to put you in a position to get a legal job upon graduation. If you go for any other reason, you're doing it wrong.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby IAFG » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:39 pm

r6_philly wrote:
IAFG wrote:When the self-selection of 10 people can move your relative placement significantly, it's dumb to try to use these numbers to show that one school is "better" at getting their kids into big firms than other schools.*

*Based on small year-to-year fluctuations.


To raise NYU 15% would take 70 people.

I would bet NYU's 2013 class has 80%+ NLJ250 placement.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby TaipeiMort » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:41 pm

I am just going to state that the data reflects something that many may not recognize:

Litigation people got torched, and business/deals people did much better. I know at Chicago that while a great percentage of people got SAships, the lit people (read: people without work experience/ professional degree to qualify them for business/deals/ actually want lit) got dumped at summer's end. This happened to a bunch of people I know that were 3Ls last year. Those that got torched ended up doing clerkships or something else.

This explains why NU people did so well: they mostly all have work experience.

This also explains why USC and Berkeley people did so well: they had the single growing sector of the economy left at the time in their backyard.

This also explains why Penn did well-- they have a lot of people self-selecting into business/deals and have the background to justify it.

NYU and Yale people got slammed, but it doesn't tell the full story. I would bet that those that got no-offered at their summer lit firms ended up in A3 district clerkships and may still have a job next cycle.
Last edited by TaipeiMort on Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby twistedwrister » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:41 pm

Note that many of the schools that place highly on this list tend to send a low % of graduates to PI and government. For example, in 2010, Penn, Chicago, and Northwestern each sent about 8-9% into PI and government work. By contrast, Yale, NYU, Michigan, and Virginia sent about 20% of the class into that kind of work.

Source: 2010 employment data (http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=174447)

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby r6_philly » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:42 pm

IAFG wrote:I would bet NYU's 2013 class has 80%+ NLJ250 placement.


I was referring to your "10 persons" statement. 10 persons at NYU is 2%.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby Wholigan » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:43 pm

r6_philly wrote:
IAFG wrote:When the self-selection of 10 people can move your relative placement significantly, it's dumb to try to use these numbers to show that one school is "better" at getting their kids into big firms than other schools.*

*Based on small year-to-year fluctuations.


To raise NYU 15% would take 70 people.


And I am pretty sure Penn has a higher percentage of JD/MBAs than NYU (although I'm not positive). Of course, NYU does have more public-interest focused students. But yeah, IMO the gap is too large and too sustained to be based on a couple more students here and there self-selecting into boutiques and business.

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Re: Top 50 go-to law schools 2012

Postby r6_philly » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:46 pm

twistedwrister wrote:Note that many of the schools that place highly on this list tend to send a low % of graduates to PI and government. For example, in 2010, Penn, Chicago, and Northwestern each sent about 8-9% into PI and government work. By contrast, Yale, NYU, Michigan, and Virginia sent about 20% of the class into that kind of work.

Source: 2010 employment data (http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=174447)


Is it because they self-select into or they can't land a biglaw job? I am sure it's a healthy mix, but you it's not dispositive looking at the numbers. There are also different levels of PI and government. Law clerk at traffic court is also PI/Government.




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