lateral to shittier firm?

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
Anonymous User
Posts: 273154
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

lateral to shittier firm?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:37 am

I'm at a V10 which doesn't let anyone share in the partnership pie. It's a big ponzi scheme. I give, and give, and give, based on a false promise. Then, when they've had enough from me and want to "give and give and give" the same false hope to a new wave of freshly minted debt-enslaved dumbasses, they screw me over and say "no thanks" to me ever becoming a partner. Of course, nothing's happened yet - but I see Bernie on the horizon. I don't want to get stuck on an island with no pants on - which is precisely what will happen if I play this game of Russian Roulette with this prestigious firm, i.e. end up being an 8th year with a partnership-rejection and expect some other firm to let me share in THEIR pie, a pie I rejected a long time ago.

Given the above "analysis" - is it wise, as a third-year associate at this ponzi firm, to call their bluff and lateral out to somewhere where i'd have a real shot at partnership? This involves walking away from a very prestigious firm to a much shittier V100

Machine Spirit
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:36 pm

Re: lateral to shittier firm?

Postby Machine Spirit » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:18 am

Anonymous User wrote: This involves walking away from a very prestigious firm to a much shittier V100


Sounds like your firm's the shitty one.

run26.2
Posts: 896
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:35 am

Re: lateral to shittier firm?

Postby run26.2 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:28 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'm at a V10 which doesn't let anyone share in the partnership pie. It's a big ponzi scheme. I give, and give, and give, based on a false promise. Then, when they've had enough from me and want to "give and give and give" the same false hope to a new wave of freshly minted debt-enslaved dumbasses, they screw me over and say "no thanks" to me ever becoming a partner. Of course, nothing's happened yet - but I see Bernie on the horizon. I don't want to get stuck on an island with no pants on - which is precisely what will happen if I play this game of Russian Roulette with this prestigious firm, i.e. end up being an 8th year with a partnership-rejection and expect some other firm to let me share in THEIR pie, a pie I rejected a long time ago.

Given the above "analysis" - is it wise, as a third-year associate at this ponzi firm, to call their bluff and lateral out to somewhere where i'd have a real shot at partnership? This involves walking away from a very prestigious firm to a much shittier V100

Curious as to the firm. Willing to PM?

Why not off? You can ork on building your own book for 1 or 2 years, while you look for a better firm (than the one you're currently considering). Good luck.

Machine Spirit
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:36 pm

Re: lateral to shittier firm?

Postby Machine Spirit » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:34 am

run26.2 wrote:You can work on building your own book for 1 or 2 years...


A 4th/5th year having developed their own book, and to such an extent that they could potentially pull clients with them?

:|

run26.2
Posts: 896
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:35 am

Re: lateral to shittier firm?

Postby run26.2 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:37 am

Machine Spirit wrote:
run26.2 wrote:You can work on building your own book for 1 or 2 years...


A 4th/5th year having developed their own book, and to such an extent that they could potentially pull clients with them?

:|[/quote
When exactly do you think you start doing this? You used to be up for partner at 7 years at most firms. So presumably you'd want to have some clients of your own by that time. True, though, taking them with you might be a stretch at 4 or 5 years.

User avatar
Jsa725
Posts: 2003
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:20 pm

Re: lateral to shittier firm?

Postby Jsa725 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:45 am

.
Last edited by Jsa725 on Wed May 29, 2013 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
quakeroats
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:34 am

Re: lateral to shittier firm?

Postby quakeroats » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'm at a V10 which doesn't let anyone share in the partnership pie. It's a big ponzi scheme. I give, and give, and give, based on a false promise. Then, when they've had enough from me and want to "give and give and give" the same false hope to a new wave of freshly minted debt-enslaved dumbasses, they screw me over and say "no thanks" to me ever becoming a partner. Of course, nothing's happened yet - but I see Bernie on the horizon. I don't want to get stuck on an island with no pants on - which is precisely what will happen if I play this game of Russian Roulette with this prestigious firm, i.e. end up being an 8th year with a partnership-rejection and expect some other firm to let me share in THEIR pie, a pie I rejected a long time ago.

Given the above "analysis" - is it wise, as a third-year associate at this ponzi firm, to call their bluff and lateral out to somewhere where i'd have a real shot at partnership? This involves walking away from a very prestigious firm to a much shittier V100


I think associates occasionally misunderstand what's being offered vis-a-vis partnership. Even the phrase "making partner" tends to convey the wrong message. Equity partnership isn't really a next stage--like moving from kindergarten to first grade. It's more like a marathon with a few hundred contestants. First through third wins, everyone else goes home. Partnership isn't so much conveyed as it is taken--it can't be any other way. If you work for a large company, promotions are more straight forward and progressive: moving up usually means you replace someone else or do somewhat more than you did for slightly more money. Your superiors in a company don't directly suffer (at least in any way they're likely to feel) for promoting you, and even if your pay package goes up and your responsibilities change, you're still an employee. Becoming a partner is more than a promotion, it's a different status. In a public corporation it's like moving from a line employee to an officer who's also an owner.

To give you a share of equity, your firm's partners have to vote against their own interests. In a large firm, this isn't insignificant. They've got this thing, and it's fucking golden. And they're just not giving it up for fucking nothing. Making you a partner means they own less. It means they have to deal with one more voice trying to control things. But more than anything, it means they have to vote themselves a pay cut. If you want to make partner at any big firm, you've got to give them a reason to make less money. You've got to add a lot of value for the calculation to make sense. A law partnership isn't a pyramid scheme, it's a business. It's not a promotion either, it's a complete change in status, from employee to owner and manager. You either present a compelling reason for them to make less money or you don't make partner.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: lateral to shittier firm?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:07 am

Anonymous User wrote:This involves walking away from a very prestigious firm to a much shittier V100

:roll:

Anonymous User
Posts: 273154
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: lateral to shittier firm?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:36 am

quakeroats wrote:To give you a share of equity, your firm's partners have to vote against their own interests. In a large firm, this isn't insignificant. They've got this thing, and it's fucking golden. And they're just not giving it up for fucking nothing. Making you a partner means they own less. It means they have to deal with one more voice trying to control things. But more than anything, it means they have to vote themselves a pay cut. If you want to make partner at any big firm, you've got to give them a reason to make less money. You've got to add a lot of value for the calculation to make sense. A law partnership isn't a pyramid scheme, it's a business. It's not a promotion either, it's a complete change in status, from employee to owner and manager. You either present a compelling reason for them to make less money or you don't make partner.


They don't take as big of a hit as you seem to think they do.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
L’Étranger
Posts: 315
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:27 am

Re: lateral to shittier firm?

Postby L’Étranger » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:47 am

What does firm prestige mean or matter in this context?

User avatar
20160810
Posts: 19648
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:18 pm

Re: lateral to shittier firm?

Postby 20160810 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:49 am

romothesavior wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This involves walking away from a very prestigious firm to a much shittier V100

:roll:

Pretty well this.

User avatar
TTH
Posts: 10378
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 1:14 am

Re: lateral to shittier firm?

Postby TTH » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:48 am

No third-year associate would be asking people here for advice on whether or not to lateral.

This trolling would be more believeable in a couple years when a bigger population of TLSers are through law school and out in the world.

User avatar
quakeroats
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:34 am

Re: lateral to shittier firm?

Postby quakeroats » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
quakeroats wrote:To give you a share of equity, your firm's partners have to vote against their own interests. In a large firm, this isn't insignificant. They've got this thing, and it's fucking golden. And they're just not giving it up for fucking nothing. Making you a partner means they own less. It means they have to deal with one more voice trying to control things. But more than anything, it means they have to vote themselves a pay cut. If you want to make partner at any big firm, you've got to give them a reason to make less money. You've got to add a lot of value for the calculation to make sense. A law partnership isn't a pyramid scheme, it's a business. It's not a promotion either, it's a complete change in status, from employee to owner and manager. You either present a compelling reason for them to make less money or you don't make partner.


They don't take as big of a hit as you seem to think they do.


That's not really the point. Making even a little bit less is unacceptable without good reason. Plus, they're signing on for more than a few years of loses as the new partner learns and starts to produce. He may or may not start pulling his weight, and the only remedy is less palatable than denying partnership.

User avatar
mattviphky
Posts: 1117
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:43 pm

Re: lateral to shittier firm?

Postby mattviphky » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm

quakeroats wrote:To give you a share of equity, your firm's partners have to vote against their own interests. In a large firm, this isn't insignificant. They've got this thing, and it's fucking golden. And they're just not giving it up for fucking nothing. Making you a partner means they own less. It means they have to deal with one more voice trying to control things. But more than anything, it means they have to vote themselves a pay cut. If you want to make partner at any big firm, you've got to give them a reason to make less money. You've got to add a lot of value for the calculation to make sense. A law partnership isn't a pyramid scheme, it's a business. It's not a promotion either, it's a complete change in status, from employee to owner and manager. You either present a compelling reason for them to make less money or you don't make partner.


:lol:

User avatar
20160810
Posts: 19648
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:18 pm

Re: lateral to shittier firm?

Postby 20160810 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:46 pm

quakeroats wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
quakeroats wrote:To give you a share of equity, your firm's partners have to vote against their own interests. In a large firm, this isn't insignificant. They've got this thing, and it's fucking golden. And they're just not giving it up for fucking nothing. Making you a partner means they own less. It means they have to deal with one more voice trying to control things. But more than anything, it means they have to vote themselves a pay cut. If you want to make partner at any big firm, you've got to give them a reason to make less money. You've got to add a lot of value for the calculation to make sense. A law partnership isn't a pyramid scheme, it's a business. It's not a promotion either, it's a complete change in status, from employee to owner and manager. You either present a compelling reason for them to make less money or you don't make partner.


They don't take as big of a hit as you seem to think they do.


That's not really the point. Making even a little bit less is unacceptable without good reason. Plus, they're signing on for more than a few years of loses as the new partner learns and starts to produce. He may or may not start pulling his weight, and the only remedy is less palatable than denying partnership.

This might be the case at mega-firms, but most partners I know at small and mid-sized firms weigh a senior associate's hopefully-already-demonstrated business development ability at the time they select him as a partner. Only in some cases are junior partners actually loss leaders. At the mid-sized firm where I summered after 2L, one of the biggest criteria for partnership (other than billing the hours and not being weird) was that they'd brought in business as an associate.

User avatar
Blindmelon
Posts: 1708
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:13 am

Re: lateral to shittier firm?

Postby Blindmelon » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:47 pm

SBL wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
quakeroats wrote:To give you a share of equity, your firm's partners have to vote against their own interests. In a large firm, this isn't insignificant. They've got this thing, and it's fucking golden. And they're just not giving it up for fucking nothing. Making you a partner means they own less. It means they have to deal with one more voice trying to control things. But more than anything, it means they have to vote themselves a pay cut. If you want to make partner at any big firm, you've got to give them a reason to make less money. You've got to add a lot of value for the calculation to make sense. A law partnership isn't a pyramid scheme, it's a business. It's not a promotion either, it's a complete change in status, from employee to owner and manager. You either present a compelling reason for them to make less money or you don't make partner.


They don't take as big of a hit as you seem to think they do.


That's not really the point. Making even a little bit less is unacceptable without good reason. Plus, they're signing on for more than a few years of loses as the new partner learns and starts to produce. He may or may not start pulling his weight, and the only remedy is less palatable than denying partnership.

This might be the case at mega-firms, but most partners I know at small and mid-sized firms weigh a senior associate's hopefully-already-demonstrated business development ability at the time they select him as a partner. Only in some cases are junior partners actually loss leaders. At the mid-sized firm where I summered after 2L, one of the biggest criteria for partnership (other than billing the hours and not being weird) was that they'd brought in business as an associate.


Small/Midsized firm bringing in business is extremely different than at a big firm. Lots of big firms charge a $10k retainer fee up front... very few clients can afford that, and those that can are typically already working with a firm or a few. Bigfirm partnership is less about bringing in business and more about fostering existing client relationships/being acknowledged as an expert in your field in the firm and in the larger legal community/ and most importantly, being what the firm needs at the time (if theres a huge uptick in IP work, they will make IP partners. If not, they will just get pushed out).

Anonymous User
Posts: 273154
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: lateral to shittier firm?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm at a V10 which doesn't let anyone share in the partnership pie. It's a big ponzi scheme. I give, and give, and give, based on a false promise. Then, when they've had enough from me and want to "give and give and give" the same false hope to a new wave of freshly minted debt-enslaved dumbasses, they screw me over and say "no thanks" to me ever becoming a partner. Of course, nothing's happened yet - but I see Bernie on the horizon. I don't want to get stuck on an island with no pants on - which is precisely what will happen if I play this game of Russian Roulette with this prestigious firm, i.e. end up being an 8th year with a partnership-rejection and expect some other firm to let me share in THEIR pie, a pie I rejected a long time ago.

Given the above "analysis" - is it wise, as a third-year associate at this ponzi firm, to call their bluff and lateral out to somewhere where i'd have a real shot at partnership? This involves walking away from a very prestigious firm to a much shittier V100


This is exactly the type of attitude of the people who don't make partner. I worked for years in a firm and whenever a new class of associates came in, it was usually pretty quick to see the ones who went down this path in terms of negativity. The associates quickly grouped themselves into those who were positive towards the future and those who were negative (with 7 or 8 out of 10 being those with negative outlooks) People forget that firms are a business- when you are an 8th year or whatever, if you provide enough value for the firm they will make you partner. It's as simple as that. You get people who go decades without ever making true (equity) partner who complain about how it was a carrot dangled in front of them their whole career, but honestly making partner is yours for the taking. If you look at it like it's something "they" give "you", then you'll get stuck in this endless loop of negativity. But it is usually apparent after maybe 3 or 4 years who will be making partner in a firm- it is the people who see their future as being in their control.

I suggest you pick up the book "Managing the Professional Services Firm", as it may as well be called "How to Make Partner". It will remind you that you are not merely an employee, but part of a business and if you want to share in the ownership, you will have to figure out how to make it worth everyone's while. Whether that means bringing in clients, becoming an expert in a field, or some other X factor, you need to do it. One thing is for sure- merely billing a ton of hours is *not* the track to partner.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.