How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

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rad lulz
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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby rad lulz » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:19 am

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patogordo
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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby patogordo » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:25 am

(spends all summer doing inconsequential make-work that no associate would ever actually do)

("our time horizon is so long, we have endless work")

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Old Gregg
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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:32 am

Objecion=The most objectively awful new poster here.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:15 am

zweitbester wrote:Objecion=The most objectively awful new poster here.

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Kikero
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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Kikero » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:41 am

I find s/he entertaining. In the train wreck sense.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:58 am

Objection is Renee Walker. I would be a lot of money on it.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby patogordo » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:08 am

Mal Reynolds wrote:Objection is Renee Walker. I would be a lot of money on it.

this should be the tls version of name that tune. "i can spot the renne walker alt in 5 posts."

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Believing stuff like this is how most people i know ended up jobless. For any future 0L's reading this, don't listen to TLS mantra. It is not T14 or bust, or T6 or bust. It is your class standing > your location > your school rank (unless you go to a school ranked under 30).

If you're stuck going to one city because your fiance/gf/bf/family is there, go to the highest ranked school you can get into in the city in which you want to practice. Do NOT go to the highest ranked school you get into if it is 2000 miles away from where you want to work! (Unless you get into Yale, and ONLY if it is Yale.)

Source: I'm the jobless median at T6 from page 4. I came here because they gave me $ and the market where my fiance and family are does not have a T14 school. I believed what I read on TLS and thought T6 > below T14. This turned out to be untrue. The market I wanted averages about 3-4 summer associates per firm and I was literally told by some firms I applied to for 2L SA positions that they "only hire from local schools" and that most of their hiring was done even before my school had started recruiting. In short, late + far away = nothing. Similar things happened to 2 of my classmates, both on law review. Both wanted jobs in secondary market that recruited weeks before our school, and now both are stuck working in NYC when their wives and kids are hundreds of miles away. (Though... when they did apply to NYC in September, they each got ~10 cb's and several offers)

Please note that none of this applies if you want to work in NYC. Everyone here who wanted an NYC job got one.


I agree with most of this advice. I'm at HYS with grades around median. I had lived in a secondary market for ~10 years where I have a significant other and own a home. I mass mailed every NALP-listed firm in the entire state. I got two screeners as a result, neither of which turned into a CB. And this isn't Wyoming that we're talking about; this is a large state with a large secondary market. And I got grilled about my ties in both screeners; they really seemed to prefer people who were born and raised and have family in the state. I got a market-paying job in NYC, so it could have been worse for me, but it's not an ideal situation. You should not assume that HYS/T6/whatever will get you a job in a secondary market even if you believe that you have very strong ties.


As long as we are just posting our experiences mine is the opposite. Turned down getting paid from the T50 near my home market (think Orlando/Birmingham/Kansas City/Baton Rouge/Sacramento) to go to HYS and have gotten wild interest from my home market including an offer from an awesome firm before I showed them my grades. The partner said, "I mean give them to us, but we aren't gonna know what they mean anyway, and honestly, some firms may say they care about your grades but they really don't." Full Disclosure. I was aggressive and early with reaching out, have decent work experience, and think I'm a fairly strong interviewer.

Not saying my experience is any more representative than those posted above me, just adding another data point.


Interesting. I'm the anon you quoted earlier. I'm coming close to outing myself, but suffice it to say that my home market has a large number of law schools, including some that are ranked fairly highly. It may be that the local firms can easily fill their incoming classes with people who are top 10% at the local T50's who were also born and raised in the state, so they aren't that excited about a median HYS person who hasn't lived there as long. But I think the point remains that one should not assume that one can waltz into one's home secondary market even coming out of HYS. If that's your goal, my recommendation would be to start networking/reaching out from the beginning of your 1L year so that firms can see that they're not merely your safety if you don't get a V5 offer. And that still may not be good enough if local class sizes are small and you're competing with top 5% people at the local T50.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Interesting. I'm the anon you quoted earlier. I'm coming close to outing myself, but suffice it to say that my home market has a large number of law schools, including some that are ranked fairly highly. It may be that the local firms can easily fill their incoming classes with people who are top 10% at the local T50's who were also born and raised in the state, so they aren't that excited about a median HYS person who hasn't lived there as long. But I think the point remains that one should not assume that one can waltz into one's home secondary market even coming out of HYS. If that's your goal, my recommendation would be to start networking/reaching out from the beginning of your 1L year so that firms can see that they're not merely your safety if you don't get a V5 offer. And that still may not be good enough if local class sizes are small and you're competing with top 5% people at the local T50.


Are you, by any chance, from the West Coast (Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Los Angeles)? I'm not the person you quoted, but based on what you said in this and your previous post, I think we may have had the same home market/ secondary market that couldn't care less about median at higher ranked law schools.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:24 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Interesting. I'm the anon you quoted earlier. I'm coming close to outing myself, but suffice it to say that my home market has a large number of law schools, including some that are ranked fairly highly. It may be that the local firms can easily fill their incoming classes with people who are top 10% at the local T50's who were also born and raised in the state, so they aren't that excited about a median HYS person who hasn't lived there as long. But I think the point remains that one should not assume that one can waltz into one's home secondary market even coming out of HYS. If that's your goal, my recommendation would be to start networking/reaching out from the beginning of your 1L year so that firms can see that they're not merely your safety if you don't get a V5 offer. And that still may not be good enough if local class sizes are small and you're competing with top 5% people at the local T50.


Are you, by any chance, from the West Coast (Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Los Angeles)? I'm not the person you quoted, but based on what you said in this and your previous post, I think we may have had the same home market/ secondary market that couldn't care less about median at higher ranked law schools.


people from hys get hired from median etc., in the aforementioned markets. it can be pretty random, and i've seen one or two people get hired (from t14's, not hys) with ties that are non-existent or tenuous at best (tech backgrounds though). the randomness is compounded by the fact that grades don't mean that much at hys so the fact that they're hiring at median is irrelevant in assessing chances/probabilities. the point is not to expect to be able to get back easily or at all, but the chief advantage of hys is the options it gives you in addition to the ability to get back.

this is all moot. if your sole aim is biglaw in seattle/portland/san diego type of markets, you're not better off going to the local schools and you should seriously consider your decision to go to law school at all. also, LA and SF are entirely different markets with different dynamics. not sure why you grouped them with the other two when throwing in san diego would have been closer to being accurate.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Interesting. I'm the anon you quoted earlier. I'm coming close to outing myself, but suffice it to say that my home market has a large number of law schools, including some that are ranked fairly highly. It may be that the local firms can easily fill their incoming classes with people who are top 10% at the local T50's who were also born and raised in the state, so they aren't that excited about a median HYS person who hasn't lived there as long. But I think the point remains that one should not assume that one can waltz into one's home secondary market even coming out of HYS. If that's your goal, my recommendation would be to start networking/reaching out from the beginning of your 1L year so that firms can see that they're not merely your safety if you don't get a V5 offer. And that still may not be good enough if local class sizes are small and you're competing with top 5% people at the local T50.


Are you, by any chance, from the West Coast (Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Los Angeles)? I'm not the person you quoted, but based on what you said in this and your previous post, I think we may have had the same home market/ secondary market that couldn't care less about median at higher ranked law schools.


people from hys get hired from median etc., in the aforementioned markets. it can be pretty random, and i've seen one or two people get hired (from t14's, not hys) with ties that are non-existent or tenuous at best (tech backgrounds though). the randomness is compounded by the fact that grades don't mean that much at hys so the fact that they're hiring at median is irrelevant in assessing chances/probabilities. the point is not to expect to be able to get back easily or at all, but the chief advantage of hys is the options it gives you in addition to the ability to get back.

this is all moot. if your sole aim is biglaw in seattle/portland/san diego type of markets, you're not better off going to the local schools and you should seriously consider your decision to go to law school at all. also, LA and SF are entirely different markets with different dynamics. not sure why you grouped them with the other two when throwing in san diego would have been closer to being accurate.


I'm the earlier anon, and the market I targeted is not on the West Coast. Suffice it to say that the state contains multiple T50 schools despite the fact that it's not a large market to begin with. I think the take home message for 0Ls/1Ls is the following: Do not go to HYS/T6/T14/higher ranked schools with the expectation that median grades (or even high grades) will guarantee you a job in your preferred secondary market even if your ties are strong. If you do want to try to land a job in a secondary market, start networking early and often to show that you are serious about working in this market (and ideally try to spend your 1L summer there). And be prepared to also bid heavily on NYC (or some other large market) as a backup option. If you do not want to be a lawyer unless you can work in your home secondary market, then your best option is to not go to law school at all (although you could go to the local T50 if you get a full scholarship and drop out if you are not in the top 10% or so). Most people at HYS will get some kind of firm job if they want it, but you can't assume that you will get your preferred secondary market (or any non-NYC market, really).

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:48 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Are you, by any chance, from the West Coast (Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Los Angeles)? I'm not the person you quoted, but based on what you said in this and your previous post, I think we may have had the same home market/ secondary market that couldn't care less about median at higher ranked law schools.


people from hys get hired from median etc., in the aforementioned markets. it can be pretty random, and i've seen one or two people get hired (from t14's, not hys) with ties that are non-existent or tenuous at best (tech backgrounds though). the randomness is compounded by the fact that grades don't mean that much at hys so the fact that they're hiring at median is irrelevant in assessing chances/probabilities. the point is not to expect to be able to get back easily or at all, but the chief advantage of hys is the options it gives you in addition to the ability to get back.

this is all moot. if your sole aim is biglaw in seattle/portland/san diego type of markets, you're not better off going to the local schools and you should seriously consider your decision to go to law school at all. also, LA and SF are entirely different markets with different dynamics. not sure why you grouped them with the other two when throwing in san diego would have been closer to being accurate.


I'm the earlier anon, and the market I targeted is not on the West Coast. Suffice it to say that the state contains multiple T50 schools despite the fact that it's not a large market to begin with. I think the take home message for 0Ls/1Ls is the following: Do not go to HYS/T6/T14/higher ranked schools with the expectation that median grades (or even high grades) will guarantee you a job in your preferred secondary market even if your ties are strong. If you do want to try to land a job in a secondary market, start networking early and often to show that you are serious about working in this market (and ideally try to spend your 1L summer there). And be prepared to also bid heavily on NYC (or some other large market) as a backup option. If you do not want to be a lawyer unless you can work in your home secondary market, then your best option is to not go to law school at all (although you could go to the local T50 if you get a full scholarship and drop out if you are not in the top 10% or so). Most people at HYS will get some kind of firm job if they want it, but you can't assume that you will get your preferred secondary market (or any non-NYC market, really).


I'm the Anon who "added a different data point." Man it's tough for me to agree with the bolded. The reason of course is simply because my experience has been so different than yours. I do however, very much agree with the underlined. Also one other thing I'll add. Denver seems stupid hard to get from non DU/UCBoulder. I know a guy who had a W&C profile who grew up in Denver and really struggled to get a Denver offer. I've heard similar things about Seattle but can't specifically comment on that.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby oblig.lawl.ref » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:02 am

I can definitely agree with the bolded. I'm a T14er with good grades that couldn't get back to my secondary market but got a few offers fairly easily in NYC. I think 0Ls/1Ls think that if they have good grades at a good school they can waltz into their home secondary markets. I think the point the anon was making, which I know many people can agree with because they've experienced it, is that that is not the case.

Note he said "guaranteed" a job. Obviously they are not guaranteed a job, so I don't see why it's so hard to agree with.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:34 am

oblig.lawl.ref wrote:I can definitely agree with the bolded. I'm a T14er with good grades that couldn't get back to my secondary market but got a few offers fairly easily in NYC. I think 0Ls/1Ls think that if they have good grades at a good school they can waltz into their home secondary markets. I think the point the anon was making, which I know many people can agree with because they've experienced it, is that that is not the case.

Note he said "guaranteed" a job. Obviously they are not guaranteed a job, so I don't see why it's so hard to agree with.


Meh. I couldn't get back into Atlanta, but having good grades at a T10 couldn't get me interviews with New York firms either. I suspect it's because I'm from the South. So I guess if your secondary market is ATL, TX, or some other Southern city, you may just be better off being a peanut farmer than going to law school.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:30 am

m
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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby beachbum » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:34 am

rad lulz wrote:Guessing V?

My experience is that NYC firms are more suspicious of outsiders than people let on

People who've spent their whole lives in the south or midwest


Definitely agree.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:21 pm

I can also attest that at CLS people with good to even excellent credentials had trouble getting back to California even with ties, but NYC was fairly easy. LA and SF hiring seems to be pretty random.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:36 pm

I am at a CCN (not Chicago) with LR and top 10%ish grades. Received offers from 7 V10s (rejected from WLRK, woe is me :oops: ). Also had screeners with 4 DC firms and did not receive a callback despite having a really legitimate tie to DC. So I guess I would agree with the idea that going to any school (and even doing well) does not guarantee anything outside of NY.

That being said, I would question why people would go to an elite law school with the idea that they're going to get a job in a market like San Diego / Portland / whatever. The demand for premium legal services is pretty slim outside of NYC, DC, TX, and LA/Silicon Valley.

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2014
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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby 2014 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:00 pm

I mean if you look at standard secondary market classes they tend to be like 33-40% local shit schools, 33-40% regional "T1's" and 10-33% T14s (more like T10s).

You are competing with 90% of your and other local classes for the shit spots, like 30% of several schools for the T1 slots and usually less than 5% of your class and the rest of the T10s. If your interest is simply odds maximization it makes tons of sense to go to the best school you can (not to mention those schools you an actual back up market(s).

The question is at what cost, but that is an extremely subjective calculation.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Kikero » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:38 pm

Yeah, people should recognize that going to a T14 won't guarantee a spot in their preferred secondary market, but they should also realize that going to a local school doesn't either.

If you are:

Secondary Market Biglaw > Secondary Market Shitlaw > Secondary Market Barista > Anywhere Else

it makes sense to go to a local school with a big scholarship. Not because you have a better shot at getting that market from the school, but because you will have less debt. But if Biglaw anywhere is preferable to being out of work in your home area, even if you'd strongly prefer to work at a firm in your market, I think you should go to the best school you can.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:43 pm

Kikero wrote:Yeah, people should recognize that going to a T14 won't guarantee a spot in their preferred secondary market, but they should also realize that going to a local school doesn't either.

If you are:

Secondary Market Biglaw > Secondary Market Shitlaw > Secondary Market Barista > Anywhere Else

it makes sense to go to a local school with a big scholarship. Not because you have a better shot at getting that market from the school, but because you will have less debt. But if Biglaw anywhere is preferable to being out of work in your home area, even if you'd strongly prefer to work at a firm in your market, I think you should go to the best school you can.

This switched from HYS to T6 to T14. My advice was HYS FWIW.

-"Different data point"

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:51 pm

New datapoint, also T6. Agree with above comments on T6 ---> California and not giving up local scholarships for higher ranked schools. You would think top 40% of CLS/NYU would be enough to get some kind of job in SF/SV, but nope, they'd rather hire Hastings people. The only thing I learned about SF/SV is that to get a job there, you need either an engineering degree or solid work experience for the large firms, and to be within driving distance for the small firms.

Don't go to law school if you don't want to go to NYC

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:New datapoint, also T6. Agree with above comments on T6 ---> California and not giving up local scholarships for higher ranked schools. You would think top 40% of CLS/NYU would be enough to get some kind of job in SF/SV, but nope, they'd rather hire Hastings people. The only thing I learned about SF/SV is that to get a job there, you need either an engineering degree or solid work experience for the large firms, and to be within driving distance for the small firms.

Don't go to law school if you don't want to go to NYC


Are you saying local CA schools give you a better shot at SF/SV than T6? Because I find that hard to believe. Maybe KC or Minneapolis or something, but SF is a pretty major market.

I'm top third at DNCG with no ties to the area and I had no problems getting a job. Two of my close friends also slightly above median and also with no CA ties are going to be working in the bay area too. Obviously this is just anecdotal, but it seems odd that if people from lower t14 can make it with no ties that people at t6 with connections would be worse off than Hastings grads.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:New datapoint, also T6. Agree with above comments on T6 ---> California and not giving up local scholarships for higher ranked schools. You would think top 40% of CLS/NYU would be enough to get some kind of job in SF/SV, but nope, they'd rather hire Hastings people. The only thing I learned about SF/SV is that to get a job there, you need either an engineering degree or solid work experience for the large firms, and to be within driving distance for the small firms.

Don't go to law school if you don't want to go to NYC


Are you saying local CA schools give you a better shot at SF/SV than T6? Because I find that hard to believe. Maybe KC or Minneapolis or something, but SF is a pretty major market.

I'm top third at DNCG with no ties to the area and I had no problems getting a job. Two of my close friends also slightly above median and also with no CA ties are going to be working in the bay area too. Obviously this is just anecdotal, but it seems odd that if people from lower t14 can make it with no ties that people at t6 with connections would be worse off than Hastings grads.

Unstated in the previous post is that those Hastings students had top 5% grades.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby paglababa » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:33 pm

*lulz*
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