How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:02 am

At D, I think it's fair to say that 15-20% of our class who wanted biglaw had to settle for gov/PI…who knows if they'll have anything at graduation.

MOST kids got something, and as long as you bid NY you seemed to be ok. Still, acting like it's back to pre-2008 times is just stupid…it's not even close.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby objecion » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:08 am

Anonymous User wrote:At D, I think it's fair to say that 15-20% of our class who wanted biglaw had to settle for gov/PI…who knows if they'll have anything at graduation. MOST kids got something, and as long as you bid NY you seemed to be ok.

Isn’t that an improved outcome at D?

Using LST stats, 51% get BLaw (up from 44% in ’12)… better than V or M but nowhere close to P. 11.6% are underemployed and 5% in school funded jobs. Using a class size of 225, you can make a case that 40 or so are up against it.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Seems to me that biglaw hiring is way more consolidated in the T6 than ever before.

Summering at a V5 this summer.

YHS: 35% of summer class.
CLS + NYU = 40% of summer class.

In a pretty big class, only a couple people each from V, D, M, NW, etc. Penn does seem to do better than it's USNWR ranking.


T6 is the new T14 now? TLS' new model is gonna be T6 or bust.


Believing stuff like this is how most people i know ended up jobless. For any future 0L's reading this, don't listen to TLS mantra. It is not T14 or bust, or T6 or bust. It is your class standing > your location > your school rank (unless you go to a school ranked under 30).

If you're stuck going to one city because your fiance/gf/bf/family is there, go to the highest ranked school you can get into in the city in which you want to practice. Do NOT go to the highest ranked school you get into if it is 2000 miles away from where you want to work! (Unless you get into Yale, and ONLY if it is Yale.)

Source: I'm the jobless median at T6 from page 4. I came here because they gave me $ and the market where my fiance and family are does not have a T14 school. I believed what I read on TLS and thought T6 > below T14. This turned out to be untrue. The market I wanted averages about 3-4 summer associates per firm and I was literally told by some firms I applied to for 2L SA positions that they "only hire from local schools" and that most of their hiring was done even before my school had started recruiting. In short, late + far away = nothing. Similar things happened to 2 of my classmates, both on law review. Both wanted jobs in secondary market that recruited weeks before our school, and now both are stuck working in NYC when their wives and kids are hundreds of miles away. (Though... when they did apply to NYC in September, they each got ~10 cb's and several offers)

Please note that none of this applies if you want to work in NYC. Everyone here who wanted an NYC job got one.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:23 pm

I'm at a T6, slightly below median, currently without jobless even though I bid solely in NYC.
I also know of around ten others just like me, not sure about the grades though.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Believing stuff like this is how most people i know ended up jobless. For any future 0L's reading this, don't listen to TLS mantra. It is not T14 or bust, or T6 or bust. It is your class standing > your location > your school rank (unless you go to a school ranked under 30).

If you're stuck going to one city because your fiance/gf/bf/family is there, go to the highest ranked school you can get into in the city in which you want to practice. Do NOT go to the highest ranked school you get into if it is 2000 miles away from where you want to work! (Unless you get into Yale, and ONLY if it is Yale.)

Source: I'm the jobless median at T6 from page 4. I came here because they gave me $ and the market where my fiance and family are does not have a T14 school. I believed what I read on TLS and thought T6 > below T14. This turned out to be untrue. The market I wanted averages about 3-4 summer associates per firm and I was literally told by some firms I applied to for 2L SA positions that they "only hire from local schools" and that most of their hiring was done even before my school had started recruiting. In short, late + far away = nothing. Similar things happened to 2 of my classmates, both on law review. Both wanted jobs in secondary market that recruited weeks before our school, and now both are stuck working in NYC when their wives and kids are hundreds of miles away. (Though... when they did apply to NYC in September, they each got ~10 cb's and several offers)

Please note that none of this applies if you want to work in NYC. Everyone here who wanted an NYC job got one.


I'm in a situation where this is of great interest to me. I'm in a smaller market city (metro of about a half million), and I would like to practice here ideally. My wife has a good job here, and she loves it. Data:

-There is no local ABA law school. The state flagship is 5 hours away, and is Tier 4. Another state flagship is actually closer and is lower T60-ish, wish decent employment statistics. However, almost all their grads stay in-state and it's still about 4 hours away.

-I'm not opposed to staying in the region and moving cities, and neither is my wife if we have to. Still, she would rather not and neither would I. Either way, she will be staying at her current job for at least the first 2 years of law school to bank some experience and make her more portable in case we do try and move.

-I will be choosing between lower T14 and these schools, and any school I attend will be basically free or close to it (full GI Bill + YRP). The housing allowance I'll receive will be based on where I'm at, defraying much of the living expenses as well. Put plainly, MONEY IS A NON-ISSUE and I'm bound only by the outcomes I desire.

In my situation, I'm heavily leaning toward the T14 closer to the market in which I'd like to stay. Can you tell me what you think given my situation?

Basically, I'm looking at: Job as lawyer >>>> Current mid-sized city > mid-to-large sized city in region >>> any region

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby patogordo » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:49 pm

the reason people say go to the T14 (or T6 now i guess) is not that they are some silver bullet that will get you a job anywhere you want but that jobs in these small, insular markets are REALLY HARD TO GET, even if you have ties. even if they "prefer" to hire from local schools, they hire so few summers/associates that you still have to do really well at the local school, which you CANNOT PREDICT.

the difference at a T6 is that if you strike out in your small, insular market you aren't totally fucked because hopefully you didn't put all your eggs in one basket and also applied to major markets where your school places well and the local school doesn't place shit.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby chinadoll » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
I'm in a situation where this is of great interest to me. I'm in a smaller market city (metro of about a half million), and I would like to practice here ideally. My wife has a good job here, and she loves it. Data:

-There is no local ABA law school. The state flagship is 5 hours away, and is Tier 4. Another state flagship is actually closer and is lower T60-ish, wish decent employment statistics. However, almost all their grads stay in-state and it's still about 4 hours away.

-I'm not opposed to staying in the region and moving cities, and neither is my wife if we have to. Still, she would rather not and neither would I. Either way, she will be staying at her current job for at least the first 2 years of law school to bank some experience and make her more portable in case we do try and move.

-I will be choosing between lower T14 and these schools, and any school I attend will be basically free or close to it (full GI Bill + YRP). The housing allowance I'll receive will be based on where I'm at, defraying much of the living expenses as well. Put plainly, MONEY IS A ZERO ISSUE and I'm bound simply be the outcomes I desire.

In my situation, I'm heavily leaning toward the T14 closer to the market in which I'd like to stay. Can you tell me what you think given my situation?

Basically, I'm looking at: Job as lawyer >>>> Current mid-sized city > mid-to-large sized city in region >>> any region


Jobless poster from above. Go to the firm websites of firms you want to work at, search by office, and go where their attorneys went.

@ other unemployed T6: any idea what happened? i realize we might be at the same school, in which case we might know different people. But if not, no one here has said anything about striking out of NYC. (It was surprising considering how many people had bottom 10% grades here who manages jobs in NYC while plenty of people in the top half of the class struck out in secondary markets, the midwest, and the west coast)

@ poster above this one: i didn't say "prefer"; i said only. towards the end of recruiting season, several firms got back to me specifying that they ONLY hire from local schools due to the small summer classes. the point of my post was to say that i should have gone to the local school. for some people in my position: a 60k/yr law job in the right city >>>> biglaw in nyc, but we don't even have that option due to being so far away
Last edited by chinadoll on Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby patogordo » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:59 pm

chinadoll wrote:@ poster above this one: i didn't say "prefer"; i said only. towards the end of recruiting season, several firms got back to me specifying that they ONLY hire from local schools due to the small summer classes

if you want to work in a market that has only a few firms that hire a few people ONLY from local schools then you better think long and hard about whether you really need to work in that market or not, especially if those local schools are TTT/TTTTs. because otherwise you're spending 3 years and possibly large amounts of money on a degree that gives you a small chance of being a lawyer in one market and no chance of being a lawyer anywhere else.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:00 pm

chinadoll wrote:@ poster above this one: i didn't say "prefer"; i said only. towards the end of recruiting season, several firms got back to me specifying that they ONLY hire from local schools due to the small summer classes. the point of my post was to say that i should have gone to the local school and taken my chances. for some people in my position: a shit job in the right city >>>> biglaw in nyc

Regardless, you'd be insane to shoot for a job in a market with just a few firms each hiring just 3-4 summers. The vast majority of the people at the local school (schools!?!) never had a chance.

If you absolutely must be in that market, either skip law school altogether or get a full ride to the local school and drop out quickly if you don't have God-mode grades.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:02 pm

This thread is mostly TL;DR. But here is the breakdown of a V10's Summer 2014 class in NYC:

95 total

3 Yale
0 Stanford
*18 Harvard
----21 out of 95
*17 Columbia
8 NYU
8 Chicago
----54 out of 95
1 Penn
5 Michigan
2 Virginia
----62 out of 95
1 Berkeley
1 Duke
2 Northwestern
1 Cornell
7 Gtown
----74 out of 95
4 Texas

For what it's worth, I had to google which schools were in the t-14 (I forgot 2 of them). This should suggest to paranoid 0Ls that you can can and will move on from paranoia and eventually live a normal life unconstrained by TLS nonsense.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:07 pm

patogordo wrote:if you want to work in a market that has only a few firms that hire a few people ONLY from local schools then you better think long and hard about whether you really need to work in that market or not, especially if those local schools are TTT/TTTTs. because otherwise you're spending 3 years and possibly large amounts of money on a degree that gives you a small chance of being a lawyer in one market and no chance of being a lawyer anywhere else.


there's no thinking "long and hard" about anything. my fiance and family are there, so i can't be anywhere else anyway. i'm not going to make 4 people uproot their jobs and lives just because i failed to get a job in that market. (what kind of person does that?)

my earlier point was to remind people in similar situations to consider location and market distribution, and not just rank and money

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby otnemem » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:any school I attend will be basically free or close to it (full GI Bill + YRP). The housing allowance I'll receive will be based on where I'm at, defraying much of the living expenses as well. Put plainly, MONEY IS A NON-ISSUE and I'm bound only by the outcomes I desire.

In my situation, I'm heavily leaning toward the T14 closer to the market in which I'd like to stay. Can you tell me what you think given my situation?


Just go to the closest T14 for free, and be clear to yourself and your SO that you may have to move to the major market in your region for some period of time. Others might be able to give you better advice if you post the specific cities/area.

Honestly, I think a lot of the otherwise justified negativity in this thread doesn't really apply to you if you can cop a free T14 degree.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby patogordo » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
patogordo wrote:if you want to work in a market that has only a few firms that hire a few people ONLY from local schools then you better think long and hard about whether you really need to work in that market or not, especially if those local schools are TTT/TTTTs. because otherwise you're spending 3 years and possibly large amounts of money on a degree that gives you a small chance of being a lawyer in one market and no chance of being a lawyer anywhere else.


there's no thinking "long and hard" about anything. my fiance and family are there, so i can't be anywhere else anyway. i'm not going to make 4 people uproot their jobs and lives just because i failed to get a job in that market. (what kind of person does that?)

my earlier point was to remind people in similar situations to consider location and market distribution, and not just rank and money

haven't you ever read Grapes of Wrath? people move for jobs all the time.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
patogordo wrote:if you want to work in a market that has only a few firms that hire a few people ONLY from local schools then you better think long and hard about whether you really need to work in that market or not, especially if those local schools are TTT/TTTTs. because otherwise you're spending 3 years and possibly large amounts of money on a degree that gives you a small chance of being a lawyer in one market and no chance of being a lawyer anywhere else.


there's no thinking "long and hard" about anything. my fiance and family are there, so i can't be anywhere else anyway. i'm not going to make 4 people uproot their jobs and lives just because i failed to get a job in that market. (what kind of person does that?)

my earlier point was to remind people in similar situations to consider location and market distribution, and not just rank and money

People should think about that, but they should also be thinking long and hard about whether going to law school at all makes sense. The city I'm from has maybe 30 SA's and graduates about 800 law students per year. You'd be crazy to go to school there hoping to end up with any meaningful legal job.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby patogordo » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:18 pm

also i'm pretty sure if you absolutely HAVE to work in Muncie, Indiana and cannot fathom accepting a job in any other town the "TLS mantra" would be "don't go to law school" not "just do NYU bro"

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:31 pm

Sorry to contribute to the Anecdote Problem from the other direction, but I am a 3L at a T10 and definitely know people with various combinations of good grades, ties to secondary markets, and work experience who struck out, and are still looking. Having less WE does seem to hurt, sometimes. Some T10s do have decent school-funded fellowships that can lead to post-grad employment, but how much this softens the blow is of course dependent upon your individual situation, debtload, etc. I had good grades and came out of OCI with only a few offers, possibly also due to being K-JD, but who really knows. The process can very much be a crap shoot. Again just my personal opinion, but I would say that if you are someone who isn't independently wealthy/doesn't have parents paying, you should still think long and hard about law school w/r/t most of the T14 unless you have (and sometimes even if you do have) a significant scholarship.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Old Gregg » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This thread is mostly TL;DR. But here is the breakdown of a V10's Summer 2014 class in NYC:

95 total

3 Yale
0 Stanford
*18 Harvard
----21 out of 95
*17 Columbia
8 NYU
8 Chicago
----54 out of 95
1 Penn
5 Michigan
2 Virginia
----62 out of 95
1 Berkeley
1 Duke
2 Northwestern
1 Cornell
7 Gtown
----74 out of 95
4 Texas

For what it's worth, I had to google which schools were in the t-14 (I forgot 2 of them). This should suggest to paranoid 0Ls that you can can and will move on from paranoia and eventually live a normal life unconstrained by TLS nonsense.


You're anonymous. You can say what the firm is. Not that it's hard to figure out.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:38 pm

objecion wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:At D, I think it's fair to say that 15-20% of our class who wanted biglaw had to settle for gov/PI…who knows if they'll have anything at graduation. MOST kids got something, and as long as you bid NY you seemed to be ok.

Isn’t that an improved outcome at D?

Using LST stats, 51% get BLaw (up from 44% in ’12)… better than V or M but nowhere close to P. 11.6% are underemployed and 5% in school funded jobs. Using a class size of 225, you can make a case that 40 or so are up against it.


Improved from the last few years maybe, but definitely not pre-2008.

PSA FOR ALL 0LS!!

If you get into multiple T14 schools that are similarly ranked (within 3 spots of each other), you are better off at the CHEAPER one. Assuming you want biglaw, there is no benefit to going to NYU or Columbia over Penn or Duke with $$. The placement stats are not significantly different, and when you think about the amount of debt you are going to have to pay back, you'll see that you're actually in a worse position.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This thread is mostly TL;DR. But here is the breakdown of a V10's Summer 2014 class in NYC:

95 total

3 Yale
0 Stanford
*18 Harvard
----21 out of 95
*17 Columbia
8 NYU
8 Chicago
----54 out of 95
1 Penn
5 Michigan
2 Virginia
----62 out of 95
1 Berkeley
1 Duke
2 Northwestern
1 Cornell
7 Gtown
----74 out of 95
4 Texas

For what it's worth, I had to google which schools were in the t-14 (I forgot 2 of them). This should suggest to paranoid 0Ls that you can can and will move on from paranoia and eventually live a normal life unconstrained by TLS nonsense.


Honestly, these numbers mean almost nothing. Offers would be more interesting.

For example, I know of a V10 firm that made ~10 offers at Virginia and got 3 people going (others turned it down for different markets or other top firms)

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:01 pm

patogordo wrote:also i'm pretty sure if you absolutely HAVE to work in Muncie, Indiana and cannot fathom accepting a job in any other town the "TLS mantra" would be "don't go to law school" not "just do NYU bro"


you must be one of those "TLS can never be wrong" people. "just do NYU" is not the same as "unless you want to end up in NYC, T14/T6/whatever does not do much for you and may sometimes hurt your chances of finding a job where you want" (by the way, do you mean NYC? NYU does not hire summer associates.)

For 0L's: all I am saying is the location of your law school in some cases may be even more important than the ranking. contrary to ^ that guy's beliefs, not every market without a T14 school is worthless or in the middle of nowhere (ex: boston, portland, minneapolis seattle, san diego). some markets may only have T20, or T30 schools, but the law firms like their T20/30 schools better and your T6 degree may not be worth more than a T20 or T30 degree in those markets, especially when those T20/T30 schools have alum connections.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby patogordo » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
patogordo wrote:also i'm pretty sure if you absolutely HAVE to work in Muncie, Indiana and cannot fathom accepting a job in any other town the "TLS mantra" would be "don't go to law school" not "just do NYU bro"


you must be one of those "TLS can never be wrong" people. "just do NYU" is not the same as "unless you want to end up in NYC, T14/T6/whatever does not do much for you and may sometimes hurt your chances of finding a job where you want" (by the way, do you mean NYC? NYU does not hire summer associates.)

For 0L's: all I am saying is the location of your law school in some cases may be even more important than the ranking. contrary to ^ that guy's beliefs, not every market without a T14 school is worthless or in the middle of nowhere (ex: boston, portland, minneapolis seattle, san diego). some markets may only have T20, or T30 schools, but the law firms like their T20/30 schools better and your T6 degree may not be worth more than a T20 or T30 degree in those markets, especially when those T20/T30 schools have alum connections.

edited to not be unnecessarily shitty to a dude with no job. see post below basically
Last edited by patogordo on Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
patogordo wrote:also i'm pretty sure if you absolutely HAVE to work in Muncie, Indiana and cannot fathom accepting a job in any other town the "TLS mantra" would be "don't go to law school" not "just do NYU bro"


you must be one of those "TLS can never be wrong" people. "just do NYU" is not the same as "unless you want to end up in NYC, T14/T6/whatever does not do much for you and may sometimes hurt your chances of finding a job where you want" (by the way, do you mean NYC? NYU does not hire summer associates.)

You've got to be kidding. He's agreeing with you. He's saying that if you don't want NYC and refuse to end up outside of your small home market, TLS would not tell you go to to NYU, but would instead say going to law school at all might not be such a good idea.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby objecion » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:18 am

278 is the estimated answer to this thread’s query.

2012 T-10 Calculation. The combined T10 underemployment is 4.3%. School funded jobs account for 6.8%. Overall 11.1%. Estimated class size is 250, or 2,500 for the entire T-10. Using the LST data, 2,222 grads are in good shape. Hopefully 2013 turned out better than 2012.

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:29 am

objecion wrote:278 is the estimated answer to this thread’s query.

2012 T-10 Calculation. The combined T10 underemployment is 4.3%. School funded jobs account for 6.8%. Overall 11.1%. Estimated class size is 250, or 2,500 for the entire T-10. Using the LST data, 2,222 grads are in good shape. Hopefully 2013 turned out better than 2012.


Image

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Re: How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless?

Postby objecion » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:50 am

objecion wrote:278 is the estimated answer to this thread’s query.

2012 T-10 Calculation. The combined T10 underemployment is 4.3%. School funded jobs account for 6.8%. Overall 11.1%. Estimated class size is 250, or 2,500 for the entire T-10. Using the LST data, 2,222 grads are in good shape. Hopefully 2013 turned out better than 2012.

It’s cold, I’m bored. Here is the breakout of the next ten (USNWR #11-#20). Underemployment 14.8% (jump from 4.3%). School funded 7.1% (about the same). Overall 21.9% (nearly double of the T10).

Estimating the class size as 250, or 2,500 in total (as per the T10 estimate)…. 548 are underwater and 1952 are OK. Comparing T10 to the next ten... difference of 270. Basically, your odds of striking out are double that of the T10.




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