Trading Up at 3L OCI

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Anonymous User
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How hard is it to trade-up during 3L OCI? Or just trade cities?

I'm at a V30 for the summer. The only possible downside is the city. Although a major city, it is not the primary major city that I would like to be in full-time.


This is the exact situation I'm in. (As an aside, I'm not sure if I'm quoting myself. That post was from a few months ago, and I very well may have posted that).

How likely is it to "trade up" during fall 3L year in a non-OCI environment (think jobfairs, mass-mail)? 3L OCI is already pretty abysmal is severely lacking any real firms willing to hire. I can only imagine these other outlets being even worse.

timbs4339
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:35 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How hard is it to trade-up during 3L OCI? Or just trade cities?

I'm at a V30 for the summer. The only possible downside is the city. Although a major city, it is not the primary major city that I would like to be in full-time.


This is the exact situation I'm in. (As an aside, I'm not sure if I'm quoting myself. That post was from a few months ago, and I very well may have posted that).

How likely is it to "trade up" during fall 3L year in a non-OCI environment (think jobfairs, mass-mail)? 3L OCI is already pretty abysmal is severely lacking any real firms willing to hire. I can only imagine these other outlets being even worse.


It really depends on the school. How highly ranked your school is will determine how many firms show up to OCI, place ads for resume drops on your school's Symplicity, or contact your Dean of Career Services directly.

run26.2
Posts: 896
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby run26.2 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How hard is it to trade-up during 3L OCI? Or just trade cities?

I'm at a V30 for the summer. The only possible downside is the city. Although a major city, it is not the primary major city that I would like to be in full-time.


This is the exact situation I'm in. (As an aside, I'm not sure if I'm quoting myself. That post was from a few months ago, and I very well may have posted that).

How likely is it to "trade up" during fall 3L year in a non-OCI environment (think jobfairs, mass-mail)? 3L OCI is already pretty abysmal is severely lacking any real firms willing to hire. I can only imagine these other outlets being even worse.

I agree with the poster above that it may depend on the strength of your school. Regardless, you should work all your connections.

For instance, you can rely on:
    * Professors who are tight with partners at a firm
    * Friends at firms (define friend broadly, i.e. contact)
    * Alumni at firms
    * Reaching out to firms to let them know you will be in the area

I have gotten positive responses from these methods, but it takes some planning. You have to reach out to the relevant people far enough in advance and be willing to be persistent. Leverage your other call-backs while they're still pending, as that increases urgency and shows you are a desirable commodity.

I never did a job fair, and my view is that I would be less successful because there would be a bunch of other people in the same position as me. I always preferred the personal connection. Same thing goes with mass-mailings. I always wanted to have a personal connection with the person receiving my resume. It goes a lot further. Usually a few emails back and forth with a person connected with the firm is good enough to get your resume hand delivered to the right person.

concurrent fork
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby concurrent fork » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
concurrent fork wrote: I didn't say you had to SA at a Vault firm. Plenty of firms outside V100 are still considered "biglaw." Market-paying boutiques are a good example.


Fair enough you didn't say Vault specifically, but it seemed like you were saying that below a certain firm size they would fail to take the employer seriously. Just wanted to confirm that the salary/reputation/type of work can make up for small size.

For those of us summering at a boutique but who end up wanting to do something else, how would you answer in a 3L interview a) why you ended up working at a smaller firm as a 2L b) why you want to do something else?

I imagine for a), if you give the wrong answer they might assume that you don't have the priorities they want, or that you just couldn't get into a big firm as a 2L?

and for b), if the boutique focuses on a very narrow area of law, is it enough to just say you want to have the chance to work in more practice areas than you could have at that firm?

Thanks for the help.

I think you can be pretty honest with interviewers on these questions. Obviously, you weren't blown away by whatever subset of practices were available at your boutique and you want to branch out. You can also talk about wanting to get staffed on larger and more complex matters, and having the support of a full-service firm. Just be careful not to sound like you're trashing your old firm when you make these points.

Anonymous User
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:07 pm

How much of 3L OCI is based on grades and how much is based on where you did your SA? Thinking about doing OCI with a V10 in a different city after working for a NYC V5 this summer. Grades are good, but not spectacular.

run26.2
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby run26.2 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:10 pm

concurrent fork wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
concurrent fork wrote: I didn't say you had to SA at a Vault firm. Plenty of firms outside V100 are still considered "biglaw." Market-paying boutiques are a good example.


Fair enough you didn't say Vault specifically, but it seemed like you were saying that below a certain firm size they would fail to take the employer seriously. Just wanted to confirm that the salary/reputation/type of work can make up for small size.

For those of us summering at a boutique but who end up wanting to do something else, how would you answer in a 3L interview a) why you ended up working at a smaller firm as a 2L b) why you want to do something else?

I imagine for a), if you give the wrong answer they might assume that you don't have the priorities they want, or that you just couldn't get into a big firm as a 2L?

and for b), if the boutique focuses on a very narrow area of law, is it enough to just say you want to have the chance to work in more practice areas than you could have at that firm?

Thanks for the help.

I think you can be pretty honest with interviewers on these questions. Obviously, you weren't blown away by whatever subset of practices were available at your boutique and you want to branch out. You can also talk about wanting to get staffed on larger and more complex matters, and having the support of a full-service firm. Just be careful not to sound like you're trashing your old firm when you make these points.

+1
In my mind, you can simply point out a subtle difference between the practices at the two firms and say you were looking for a firm that did it similarly to the way the new firm does it. And combine that with a statement that a non-boutique firm has the benefit of stability (from diversification) and provides increased opportunities to develop skills in other areas of the law.

Anonymous User
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:22 pm

run26.2 wrote:I agree with the poster above that it may depend on the strength of your school. Regardless, you should work all your connections.

For instance, you can rely on:
    * Professors who are tight with partners at a firm
    * Friends at firms (define friend broadly, i.e. contact)
    * Alumni at firms
    * Reaching out to firms to let them know you will be in the area

I have gotten positive responses from these methods, but it takes some planning. You have to reach out to the relevant people far enough in advance and be willing to be persistent. Leverage your other call-backs while they're still pending, as that increases urgency and shows you are a desirable commodity.

I never did a job fair, and my view is that I would be less successful because there would be a bunch of other people in the same position as me. I always preferred the personal connection. Same thing goes with mass-mailings. I always wanted to have a personal connection with the person receiving my resume. It goes a lot further. Usually a few emails back and forth with a person connected with the firm is good enough to get your resume hand delivered to the right person.

OK, this is good stuff, but seems like general 2L OCI stuff. Does anyone else have any thoughts re: the frequency with which, for example, V20s accept V40 SAs looking to "trade up?" NALP doesn't seem to offer much guidance

run26.2
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby run26.2 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
run26.2 wrote:I agree with the poster above that it may depend on the strength of your school. Regardless, you should work all your connections.

For instance, you can rely on:
    * Professors who are tight with partners at a firm
    * Friends at firms (define friend broadly, i.e. contact)
    * Alumni at firms
    * Reaching out to firms to let them know you will be in the area

I have gotten positive responses from these methods, but it takes some planning. You have to reach out to the relevant people far enough in advance and be willing to be persistent. Leverage your other call-backs while they're still pending, as that increases urgency and shows you are a desirable commodity.

I never did a job fair, and my view is that I would be less successful because there would be a bunch of other people in the same position as me. I always preferred the personal connection. Same thing goes with mass-mailings. I always wanted to have a personal connection with the person receiving my resume. It goes a lot further. Usually a few emails back and forth with a person connected with the firm is good enough to get your resume hand delivered to the right person.

OK, this is good stuff, but seems like general 2L OCI stuff. Does anyone else have any thoughts re: the frequency with which, for example, V20s accept V40 SAs looking to "trade up?" NALP doesn't seem to offer much guidance

It's really not that different from 2L OCI. I used the above methods and got CBs at highly ranked firms, above where you're speaking of, and coming from a firm ranked below where you're speaking of.

I assume the there is not much data because it is relatively rare, not because it is all THAT difficult. Most people just aren't looking to make that kind of move. V40 to V20 seems like a pretty small jump.

I don't really want to get too specific with firms, but I'll just say that moving up can be done.

Anonymous User
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:09 pm

yea it seems kinda random to me though re trading up. i went from v20 to v5. i was probably eligible for v5 to begin with though so i think that helped a lot. i know kids from other v20s who tried to move up but couldn't. don't know much about their background though to speculate why they couldn't. i think partly its just so few spots open.

you also need a really good story (this is the first question they always ask) - i think that can make a difference, and you need to give a reason without sounding like a jerk-off because if you say u didn't like the people/culture or whatever at ur 2L firm you come off as someone difficult to work with. i moved up b/c i discovered a practice group i really liked over the summer, and it was well known my 2L firm was not a major player in that area. even if you move up solely for prestige you just have to be careful how you phrase it.

Anonymous User
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:13 pm

run26.2 wrote:It's really not that different from 2L OCI. I used the above methods and got CBs at highly ranked firms, above where you're speaking of, and coming from a firm ranked below where you're speaking of.

I assume the there is not much data because it is relatively rare, not because it is all THAT difficult. Most people just aren't looking to make that kind of move. V40 to V20 seems like a pretty small jump.

I don't really want to get too specific with firms, but I'll just say that moving up can be done.

Thanks! This is what I'm looking for. I gather that your having an offer in hand from the 2L firm was an important part of the process. I've seen in another thread that the NALP gives you 28 days to accept the 2L SA offer - did you run into any timing problems with that? Also, did the firms you were interviewing with call anyone at your SA firm to see if you were a good worker or not? If so, that presents some obvious concerns...

LawIdiot86
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby LawIdiot86 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
run26.2 wrote:It's really not that different from 2L OCI. I used the above methods and got CBs at highly ranked firms, above where you're speaking of, and coming from a firm ranked below where you're speaking of.

I assume the there is not much data because it is relatively rare, not because it is all THAT difficult. Most people just aren't looking to make that kind of move. V40 to V20 seems like a pretty small jump.

I don't really want to get too specific with firms, but I'll just say that moving up can be done.

Thanks! This is what I'm looking for. I gather that your having an offer in hand from the 2L firm was an important part of the process. I've seen in another thread that the NALP gives you 28 days to accept the 2L SA offer - did you run into any timing problems with that? Also, did the firms you were interviewing with call anyone at your SA firm to see if you were a good worker or not? If so, that presents some obvious concerns...


No, the NALP provision is:
Employers offering full-time positions to commence following graduation to candidates previously employed by them should leave those offers open until at least November 1 of the candidate’s final year of law school. Candidates should reaffirm these offers within thirty days from the date of the offer letter. Employers may retract any offer that is not reaffirmed within the 30 day period.

run26.2
Posts: 896
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:35 am

Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby run26.2 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
run26.2 wrote:It's really not that different from 2L OCI. I used the above methods and got CBs at highly ranked firms, above where you're speaking of, and coming from a firm ranked below where you're speaking of.

I assume the there is not much data because it is relatively rare, not because it is all THAT difficult. Most people just aren't looking to make that kind of move. V40 to V20 seems like a pretty small jump.

I don't really want to get too specific with firms, but I'll just say that moving up can be done.

Thanks! This is what I'm looking for. I gather that your having an offer in hand from the 2L firm was an important part of the process. I've seen in another thread that the NALP gives you 28 days to accept the 2L SA offer - did you run into any timing problems with that? Also, did the firms you were interviewing with call anyone at your SA firm to see if you were a good worker or not? If so, that presents some obvious concerns...

PM if you want more details.

Geon
Posts: 143
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby Geon » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How would subpar grades effect the process? I'm below median at a T14 and ended up in a V50 specialty practice because the interviewers didn't understand my school's curve (they kept raving over how high my grades were). Assuming I would like to move to a different practice or city and manage to get an offer from the V50, how much will my GPA continue to hurt me? A couple of the firms at my 2L OCI said I was the perfect fit, but that their hiring committee would never let them call back someone with a GPA as low as mine.

I;m dying to know the school this is.

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yuzu
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby yuzu » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:22 am

Anonymous User wrote:How would subpar grades (a)ffect the process? I'm below median at a T14 and ended up in a V50 specialty practice because the interviewers didn't understand my school's curve (they kept raving over how high my grades were). Assuming I would like to move to a different practice or city and manage to get an offer from the V50, how much will my GPA continue to hurt me? A couple of the firms at my 2L OCI said I was the perfect fit, but that their hiring committee would never let them call back someone with a GPA as low as mine.


Wow - I guess this is why grade inflation exists.

Anonymous User
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:28 pm

Anybody have any thoughts on how long into 3L recruiting you can interview (assuming you have a 2L SA offer), before shit gets weird with your 2L firm? 1 week? 2 weeks?

I imagine if you don't accept the 2L SA offer right away, the old firm will know you're interviewing, and then if you come back they'll know it was because you didn't land anything elsewhere. That's a good way to build ill will before even starting the jerb.

So, thoughts?

Anonymous User
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:51 am

Anonymous User wrote:Anybody have any thoughts on how long into 3L recruiting you can interview (assuming you have a 2L SA offer), before shit gets weird with your 2L firm? 1 week? 2 weeks?

I imagine if you don't accept the 2L SA offer right away, the old firm will know you're interviewing, and then if you come back they'll know it was because you didn't land anything elsewhere. That's a good way to build ill will before even starting the jerb.

So, thoughts?


Cosign. Can we talk logistics? How long do we have? What do we tell the 2L firm in the interim?

Anonymous User
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:37 am

Gotta be either Chicago or Northwestern.

yuzu wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How would subpar grades (a)ffect the process? I'm below median at a T14 and ended up in a V50 specialty practice because the interviewers didn't understand my school's curve (they kept raving over how high my grades were). Assuming I would like to move to a different practice or city and manage to get an offer from the V50, how much will my GPA continue to hurt me? A couple of the firms at my 2L OCI said I was the perfect fit, but that their hiring committee would never let them call back someone with a GPA as low as mine.


Wow - I guess this is why grade inflation exists.

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:33 am

Anonymous User wrote:Cosign. Can we talk logistics? How long do we have? What do we tell the 2L firm in the interim?


bump

Anonymous User
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:15 pm

BUMP

User avatar
Perseus_I
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby Perseus_I » Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:34 pm

yuzu wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How would subpar grades (a)ffect the process? I'm below median at a T14 and ended up in a V50 specialty practice because the interviewers didn't understand my school's curve (they kept raving over how high my grades were). Assuming I would like to move to a different practice or city and manage to get an offer from the V50, how much will my GPA continue to hurt me? A couple of the firms at my 2L OCI said I was the perfect fit, but that their hiring committee would never let them call back someone with a GPA as low as mine.


Wow - I guess this is why grade inflation exists.


Yeah, there are people at Northwestern who are "median" with a 3.5.

Anonymous User
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Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Cosign. Can we talk logistics? How long do we have? What do we tell the 2L firm in the interim?


bump


Bump

Anonymous User
Posts: 273139
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Cosign. Can we talk logistics? How long do we have? What do we tell the 2L firm in the interim?


bump


Bump


bump

Anonymous User
Posts: 273139
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:57 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Cosign. Can we talk logistics? How long do we have? What do we tell the 2L firm in the interim?


bump


Bump


bump


Bump. Any new advice for people in this boat?

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Trading Up at 3L OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:57 am

Perseus_I wrote:Yeah, there are people at Northwestern who are "median" with a 3.5.

no, there aren't.




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