PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

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Old Gregg
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:25 pm

IAFG wrote:So both of us have imperfect information. At best, we can say no one really knows for sure.


I have my memory, but no one here seems willing to buy it. Also, your analysis (I think) is based on the current V15-20. We have to look at the 2009 Vault rankings to assess my stability claim.

I'll do it for you:

1) Wachtell -- Nothing.
2) Cravath -- Stealth layoffs; double deferral.
3) S&C -- Stealth layoffs
4) DPW -- Stealth layoffs
5) Skadden -- Stealth layoffs, double deferral
6) Simpson -- Stealth layoffs, "voluntary" deferral
7) Latham -- Mass, public layoffs
8 ) Cleary -- Stealth layoffs
9) Weil -- Stealth layoffs, triple deferral
10) Kirkland -- Stealth layoffs
11) Covington -- salary freeze
12) Debevoise -- Stealth layoffs
13) Paul Weiss -- Stealth layoffs
14) Williams & Connolly -- Nothing
15) Sidley Austin -- Massive public layoffs; deferrals; might have been a salary freeze too.
16) Gibson Dunn -- Stealth layoffs
17) WilmerHale -- Stealth Layoffs, switch to "merit" compensation system; voluntary deferrals
18) White & Case -- Massive public layoffs; double deferral
19) Sherman & Sterling -- Stealth Layoffs; triple deferrals
20) Arnold & Porter -- Stealth layoffs; salary freeze; single deferral

While there are sprinkles here and there of bad things in the V10 (mostly Latham), the real shit starts happening at Sidley.

Let's try a point system:
2=Mass layoffs
1=Stealths
1=Compensation Adjustment
1=Deferrals

V1-5: 6
V6-10: 8
V11-15: 7
Vault 16-20: 12

Pretty big jump.

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Old Gregg
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:32 pm

Also: This ATL post shows a pretty strong correlation between offer rates and Vault rank:

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/04/summer-o ... 5-are-hot/

Morgan12Oak
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Morgan12Oak » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:36 pm

ITT: people are butthurt about not getting a higher ranked vault firm.

IAFG: y u mad bro

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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:51 pm

This is insanity. Every firm did layoffs except Wachtell. Would you rather have 10 publicly laid off lawyers or 35 stealth layoffs? Does it really matter if it is stealth or not? The result is the exact same.

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Old Gregg
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This is insanity. Every firm did layoffs except Wachtell. Would you rather have 10 publicly laid off lawyers or 35 stealth layoffs? Does it really matter if it is stealth or not? The result is the exact same.


I agree with you. But by and large, the public layoffs were larger than the stealths (it's far easier to publicly layoff 200 lawyers; associates seem to notice when 200 associates go missing through stealth layoffs).

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johansantana21
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby johansantana21 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:04 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:Also: This ATL post shows a pretty strong correlation between offer rates and Vault rank:

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/04/summer-o ... 5-are-hot/


What happened to those people that got no offered? Did that many people just screw up that bad or what?

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Old Gregg
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:07 pm

johansantana21 wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:Also: This ATL post shows a pretty strong correlation between offer rates and Vault rank:

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/04/summer-o ... 5-are-hot/


What happened to those people that got no offered? Did that many people just screw up that bad or what?


Probably not. It was the summer of 2009. The financial shitstorm hit its height after OCI in 2008 had gone into full swing. As a result, a lot of firms over-hired. Some firms, knowing this, actually rescinded outstanding offers during the 2008 recruiting season (Akin Gump). A lot of summer associates were no offered through no fault of their own.

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johansantana21
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby johansantana21 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:10 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:Also: This ATL post shows a pretty strong correlation between offer rates and Vault rank:

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/04/summer-o ... 5-are-hot/


What happened to those people that got no offered? Did that many people just screw up that bad or what?


Probably not. It was the summer of 2009. The financial shitstorm hit its height after OCI in 2008 had gone into full swing. As a result, a lot of firms over-hired. Some firms, knowing this, actually rescinded outstanding offers during the 2008 recruiting season (Akin Gump). A lot of summer associates were no offered through no fault of their own.


So ITE, what do you think the offer rate is like throughout the V50?

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Old Gregg
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:13 pm

johansantana21 wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:Also: This ATL post shows a pretty strong correlation between offer rates and Vault rank:

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/04/summer-o ... 5-are-hot/


What happened to those people that got no offered? Did that many people just screw up that bad or what?


Probably not. It was the summer of 2009. The financial shitstorm hit its height after OCI in 2008 had gone into full swing. As a result, a lot of firms over-hired. Some firms, knowing this, actually rescinded outstanding offers during the 2008 recruiting season (Akin Gump). A lot of summer associates were no offered through no fault of their own.


So ITE, what do you think the offer rate is like throughout the V50?


These days? Hard to tell. So many no offers go under the radar. ATL doesn't report a lot about it these days (probably because no offers are too scared to send tips in). That said, year after year I hear from students who were no offered throughout the V100. Some of those V100s no offered a substantial portion of their class, if not all. Even last summer.

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johansantana21
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby johansantana21 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:15 pm

These days? Hard to tell. So many no offers go under the radar. ATL doesn't report a lot about it these days (probably because no offers are too scared to send tips in). That said, year after year I hear from students who were no offered throughout the V100. Some of those V100s no offered a substantial portion of their class, if not all. Even last summer.


Why? Hasn't the economy stabilized enough by now for firms to know how many SA they will be able to hire?

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Old Gregg
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:16 pm

Why? Hasn't the economy stabilized enough by now for firms to know how many SA they will be able to hire?


No idea. Best guess is that work has dried up for a lot of firms, they hire summers in anticipation of work picking up, and work doesn't pick up.

Morgan12Oak
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Morgan12Oak » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:18 pm

johansantana21 wrote:
These days? Hard to tell. So many no offers go under the radar. ATL doesn't report a lot about it these days (probably because no offers are too scared to send tips in). That said, year after year I hear from students who were no offered throughout the V100. Some of those V100s no offered a substantial portion of their class, if not all. Even last summer.


Why? Hasn't the economy stabilized enough by now for firms to know how many SA they will be able to hire?


This is assuming firms hire every SA under the assumption that they want that SA to work with them full time. Considering the lax process of interviewing and the fact that so many law students are not ready to work in professional environments from a competence and especially a maturity perspective, this assumption is probably flawed. The more prestigious (think V15 obviously) firms do operate on this assumption but they do so not because they think everyone is mature/competent but because they can attract law students with stronger credentials with the relative security of automatically being given an offer.

concurrent fork
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby concurrent fork » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:30 am

ITT: summer associates at V16-100 vent frustration

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IAFG
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby IAFG » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:34 am

concurrent fork wrote:ITT: summer associates at V16-100 vent frustration

Alright now that this has been trotted out several time, I'm not.

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booboo
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby booboo » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:57 pm

IAFG wrote:
concurrent fork wrote:ITT: summer associates at V16-100 vent frustration

Alright now that this has been trotted out several time, I'm not.


A firm gave you an offer? Wow.

:D.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:49 pm

I dunno, V15 seems like an okay distinction, to the extent that Vault measures anything meaningful in the first place. It seems to me that there are lots of firms that bounce around 10-15 that are all kind of generally "top ten-ish" firms (Covington, Latham, Kirkland, Debevoise, Paul Weiss, Williams & Connolly). In my mind they're a cut above (i.e., more selective than, more "prestigious" than) the White and Case, Jones Day, etc. bunch.

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IAFG
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby IAFG » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:57 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:I dunno, V15 seems like an okay distinction, to the extent that Vault measures anything meaningful in the first place. It seems to me that there are lots of firms that bounce around 10-15 that are all kind of generally "top ten-ish" firms (Covington, Latham, Kirkland, Debevoise, Paul Weiss, Williams & Connolly). In my mind they're a cut above (i.e., more selective than, more "prestigious" than) the White and Case, Jones Day, etc. bunch.

The "etc" are really great firms, two of whom pay better than the V15.

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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby c3pO4 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:58 pm

IAFG wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:I dunno, V15 seems like an okay distinction, to the extent that Vault measures anything meaningful in the first place. It seems to me that there are lots of firms that bounce around 10-15 that are all kind of generally "top ten-ish" firms (Covington, Latham, Kirkland, Debevoise, Paul Weiss, Williams & Connolly). In my mind they're a cut above (i.e., more selective than, more "prestigious" than) the White and Case, Jones Day, etc. bunch.

The "etc" are really great firms, two of whom pay better than the V15.


what is the exact measurement of an "ish" and a "cut," I wonder? arbitrary rankings ftw

Morgan12Oak
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Morgan12Oak » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:03 am

IAFG wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:I dunno, V15 seems like an okay distinction, to the extent that Vault measures anything meaningful in the first place. It seems to me that there are lots of firms that bounce around 10-15 that are all kind of generally "top ten-ish" firms (Covington, Latham, Kirkland, Debevoise, Paul Weiss, Williams & Connolly). In my mind they're a cut above (i.e., more selective than, more "prestigious" than) the White and Case, Jones Day, etc. bunch.

The "etc" are really great firms, two of whom pay better than the V15.



LOL who cares what firms pay. If you go into big law to make money, you've already got it all wrong.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:05 am

c3pO4 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:I dunno, V15 seems like an okay distinction, to the extent that Vault measures anything meaningful in the first place. It seems to me that there are lots of firms that bounce around 10-15 that are all kind of generally "top ten-ish" firms (Covington, Latham, Kirkland, Debevoise, Paul Weiss, Williams & Connolly). In my mind they're a cut above (i.e., more selective than, more "prestigious" than) the White and Case, Jones Day, etc. bunch.

The "etc" are really great firms, two of whom pay better than the V15.


what is the exact measurement of an "ish" and a "cut," I wonder? arbitrary rankings ftw

Yeah, well, it's all kind of bullshitty in the first place, isn't it? I do agree with IAFG's overarching point, which seems to be: Don't let these rankings play a dominant role in your career decisions. Obviously, if you want to make an extra few grand a year, or want to work in a really high-stakes lit shop, or want to work in the Bay Area or Boston, then yeah go to Boies or Quinn or MoFo or Ropes etc. etc. etc. Just saying, to the extent that Vault means anything at all (which is sort of a "where there's smoke there's fire, so listen to conventional wisdom" role) V15 seems as good a place as any to draw some sort of obviously arbitrary cut off.

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Dany
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Dany » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:08 am

Morgan12Oak wrote:LOL who cares what firms pay. If you go into big law to make money, you've already got it all wrong.

. . .

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:09 am

Dany wrote:
Morgan12Oak wrote:LOL who cares what firms pay. If you go into big law to make money, you've already got it all wrong.

. . .

Right, you go to big law because it will make you deeply happy, professionally and personally.

Anonymous User
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:11 am

For NYC:

T6 (Elite-Band 1 in both Corporate and General Litigation)
-------------
Everybody else.

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Blindmelon
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Blindmelon » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:14 am

Anonymous User wrote:For NYC:

T6 (Elite-Band 1 in both Corporate and General Litigation)
-------------
Everybody else.


.... thats the point.

c3pO4
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby c3pO4 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:35 am

Blindmelon wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:For NYC:

T6 (Elite-Band 1 in both Corporate and General Litigation)
-------------
Everybody else.


.... thats the point.




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