PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

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IAFG
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PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby IAFG » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:59 pm

Firms between V10 and V15 are not more prestigious than firms V15-V20. A V40 is not necessarily more prestigious than a V60. Going to a V5 in some markets may very well give you worse lateral options in a than going a lower ranked or even unranked firm. A firm's strength in a certain practice area and city is almost always more meaningful than their Vault ranking. Please stop using Vault like USNWR.

lawschoolftw
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby lawschoolftw » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:07 pm

I also wish people would stop using USNWR like USNWR

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Detrox
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Detrox » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:07 pm

This post will undoubtedly stop all use of arbitrary V's with multiples of 5, additionally the notion of T6 will collapse as everyone instantly recognizes it as an artifice of TLS.

Or this thread will spark discussion and/or argument that people will mostly ignore and forget by tomorrow as people inquire as to the advance policies of the "V20"...

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Dany
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Dany » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:13 pm

OP outed as working at a VsixTTTeen.

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IAFG
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby IAFG » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:16 pm

Detrox wrote:This post will undoubtedly stop all use of arbitrary V's with multiples of 5, additionally the notion of T6 will collapse as everyone instantly recognizes it as an artifice of TLS.

Or this thread will spark discussion and/or argument that people will mostly ignore and forget by tomorrow as people inquire as to the advance policies of the "V20"...

I feel a little better now either way, so whatever.

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IAFG
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby IAFG » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:17 pm

lawschoolftw wrote:I also wish people would stop using USNWR like USNWR

Aren't people already using hiring stats in place of USNWR?

BeenDidThat
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby BeenDidThat » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:25 pm

But...but...V8 is real...

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sn20
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby sn20 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:59 pm

.
Last edited by sn20 on Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Detrox
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Detrox » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:02 pm

sn20 wrote:
IAFG wrote:Firms between V10 and V15 are not more prestigious than firms V15-V20. A V40 is not necessarily more prestigious than a V60. Going to a V5 in some markets may very well give you worse lateral options in a than going a lower ranked or even unranked firm. A firm's strength in a certain practice area and city is almost always more meaningful than their Vault ranking. Please stop using Vault like USNWR.


How do you assess the strength of a firm's practice area/where can I find this information? Also on the topic of Vault firms, how should I assess the prestige/strength/lateral options of a non-HQ branch office like a Skadden in Houston vs. the Big 3? 0L here and thanks ahead of time.


Vault practice area rankings aren't terrible, but most people seem agree that Chambers is the best guide for this sort of practice area info. http://www.chambersandpartners.com/

No idea on your latter question.

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romothesavior
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby romothesavior » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:30 pm

lawschoolftw wrote:I also wish people would stop using USNWR like USNWR

lol this

Solid point IAFG. People are stupid. Prestige whoring for material purposes is cool. Prestige whoring for the sake of prestige whoring is annoying and meaningless.

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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby nonprofit-prophet » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:42 pm

sn20 wrote:
IAFG wrote:Firms between V10 and V15 are not more prestigious than firms V15-V20. A V40 is not necessarily more prestigious than a V60. Going to a V5 in some markets may very well give you worse lateral options in a than going a lower ranked or even unranked firm. A firm's strength in a certain practice area and city is almost always more meaningful than their Vault ranking. Please stop using Vault like USNWR.


How do you assess the strength of a firm's practice area/where can I find this information? Also on the topic of Vault firms, how should I assess the prestige/strength/lateral options of a non-HQ branch office like a Skadden in Houston vs. the Big 3? 0L here and thanks ahead of time.



From what I understand, your exit options have less to do with your brand name and more to do with the work you were doing at the firm. Sure, Skadden has a great national name, but the Big 3 have much better reputations in TX. It is more likely you'll have a better opportunity there to develop a solid practice. And that's the best way to have good exit options.

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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby alabamabound » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:17 am

I don't know the exact Vault numbers off-hand and am too indifferent to look them up, but, that said, there does seem to be a valid distinction drawn between, e.g., PW, GDC, D&P and Sidley vs., e.g., Jones Day, Shearman & Sterling and White & Case, which I think are ranked 15-25.

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IAFG
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby IAFG » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:43 am

alabamabound wrote:I don't know the exact Vault numbers off-hand and am too indifferent to look them up, but, that said, there does seem to be a valid distinction drawn between, e.g., PW, GDC, D&P and Sidley vs., e.g., Jones Day, Shearman & Sterling and White & Case, which I think are ranked 15-25.


The current V25:

1 1 Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 9.139 New York, NY
2 2 Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP 8.735 New York, NY
3 3 Sullivan & Cromwell LLP 8.443 New York, NY
4 4 Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP and Affiliates 8.430 New York, NY
5 5 Davis Polk & Wardwell 8.121 New York, NY
6 6 Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP 7.877 New York, NY
7 7 Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP 7.858 New York, NY
8 9 Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton LLP 7.766 New York, NY
9 11 Kirkland & Ellis LLP 7.496 Chicago, IL
10 10 Covington & Burling LLP 7.382 Washington, DC
11 15 Latham & Watkins LLP 7.335 New York, NY
12 13 Debevoise & Plimpton LLP 7.324 New York, NY
13 12 Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP 7.177 New York, NY
13 8 Williams & Connolly LLP 7.177 Washington, DC
14 14 Gibson Dunn & Crutcher LLP 7.172 Los Angeles, CA
15 16 Sidley Austin LLP 7.087 Chicago, IL
16 19 Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan LLP 6.868 Los Angeles, CA
17 23 Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP 6.842 New York, NY
18 20 White & Case LLP 6.829 New York, NY
19 18 Jones Day 6.826 Washington, DC
20 21 Arnold & Porter LLP 6.692 Washington, DC
22 24 O'Melveny & [deleted] LLP 6.537 Los Angeles, CA
23 26 Morrison & Foerster LLP 6.506 San Francisco, CA
24 22 Shearman & Sterling LLP 6.478 New York, NY
25 25 Ropes & Gray LLP 6.473 Boston, MA

So Sidley was out of the magical V15 last year, Quinn and Boies haven't been, Arnold & Porter and MoFo are out, Paul Weiss is in? Not to mention Weil & Skadden's many secondary market offices, which apparently get to claim V5 and V10 status? Williams & Connolly isn't V10... this year? It's just not USNWR and our USNWR shorthands don't translate.

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dood
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby dood » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:55 am

Dany wrote:OP outed as working at a VsixTTTeen.


i LOLd for real and hard

but lets be honest, there is no prestige in law to begin with. all those names listed on vault dont mean shit. things that are prestigious: rhodes scholarship, SCOTUS clerkship, G&S, bain capital, st. tropez, etc <- no law firm fits into this list
Last edited by dood on Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby ph14 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:57 am

IAFG wrote:
alabamabound wrote:I don't know the exact Vault numbers off-hand and am too indifferent to look them up, but, that said, there does seem to be a valid distinction drawn between, e.g., PW, GDC, D&P and Sidley vs., e.g., Jones Day, Shearman & Sterling and White & Case, which I think are ranked 15-25.


The current V25:

1 1 Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 9.139 New York, NY
2 2 Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP 8.735 New York, NY
3 3 Sullivan & Cromwell LLP 8.443 New York, NY
4 4 Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP and Affiliates 8.430 New York, NY
5 5 Davis Polk & Wardwell 8.121 New York, NY
6 6 Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP 7.877 New York, NY
7 7 Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP 7.858 New York, NY
8 9 Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton LLP 7.766 New York, NY
9 11 Kirkland & Ellis LLP 7.496 Chicago, IL
10 10 Covington & Burling LLP 7.382 Washington, DC
11 15 Latham & Watkins LLP 7.335 New York, NY
12 13 Debevoise & Plimpton LLP 7.324 New York, NY
13 12 Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP 7.177 New York, NY
13 8 Williams & Connolly LLP 7.177 Washington, DC
14 14 Gibson Dunn & Crutcher LLP 7.172 Los Angeles, CA
15 16 Sidley Austin LLP 7.087 Chicago, IL
16 19 Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan LLP 6.868 Los Angeles, CA
17 23 Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP 6.842 New York, NY
18 20 White & Case LLP 6.829 New York, NY
19 18 Jones Day 6.826 Washington, DC
20 21 Arnold & Porter LLP 6.692 Washington, DC
22 24 O'Melveny & [deleted] LLP 6.537 Los Angeles, CA
23 26 Morrison & Foerster LLP 6.506 San Francisco, CA
24 22 Shearman & Sterling LLP 6.478 New York, NY
25 25 Ropes & Gray LLP 6.473 Boston, MA

So Sidley was out of the magical V15 last year, Quinn and Boies haven't been, Arnold & Porter and MoFo are out, Paul Weiss is in? Not to mention Weil & Skadden's many secondary market offices, which apparently get to claim V5 and V10 status? Williams & Connolly isn't V10... this year? It's just not USNWR and our USNWR shorthands don't translate.


Is working in satellite offices not as good as the main office? Will it affect your exit options?

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IAFG
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby IAFG » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:24 am

ph14 wrote:Is working in satellite offices not as good as the main office? Will it affect your exit options?

The classic example would be taking Skadden Boston over Ropes Boston. Ropes in that market is King, but aside from that, not every Skadden office is going to have the same or even similar exit options.

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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby koalatriste » Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:29 am

ph14 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
The current V25:

1 1 Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 9.139 New York, NY
2 2 Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP 8.735 New York, NY
3 3 Sullivan & Cromwell LLP 8.443 New York, NY
4 4 Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP and Affiliates 8.430 New York, NY
5 5 Davis Polk & Wardwell 8.121 New York, NY
6 6 Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP 7.877 New York, NY
7 7 Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP 7.858 New York, NY
8 9 Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton LLP 7.766 New York, NY
9 11 Kirkland & Ellis LLP 7.496 Chicago, IL
10 10 Covington & Burling LLP 7.382 Washington, DC
11 15 Latham & Watkins LLP 7.335 New York, NY
12 13 Debevoise & Plimpton LLP 7.324 New York, NY
13 12 Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP 7.177 New York, NY
13 8 Williams & Connolly LLP 7.177 Washington, DC
14 14 Gibson Dunn & Crutcher LLP 7.172 Los Angeles, CA
15 16 Sidley Austin LLP 7.087 Chicago, IL
16 19 Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan LLP 6.868 Los Angeles, CA
17 23 Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP 6.842 New York, NY
18 20 White & Case LLP 6.829 New York, NY
19 18 Jones Day 6.826 Washington, DC
20 21 Arnold & Porter LLP 6.692 Washington, DC
22 24 O'Melveny & [deleted] LLP 6.537 Los Angeles, CA
23 26 Morrison & Foerster LLP 6.506 San Francisco, CA
24 22 Shearman & Sterling LLP 6.478 New York, NY
25 25 Ropes & Gray LLP 6.473 Boston, MA



This "V25" list is blatant anti-Wilmer trolling.

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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby c3pO4 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:32 am

+ 1 billion. there are v60's in certain markets that you'd be a fool to turn down. vault isn't even respected in the industry -- firms prefer amlaw and chambers. it's all about what practice areas you care about, who the top partners are, and who the clients are, and location.

vault is fully meaningless. classic example - WSGR is a top 3 firm in the bay area for tech. vault ranking? #50. what is that firm that represents Facebook on their IPO called? Fenwick and West? vault ranking? none. wll you turn your nose up to alston and bird (v53) in atlanta? perkins coie (#66) in the northwest? just lol.

by compensation, the top firms are wachtell, susman, irell, kirkland, boies. some are ranked well, some not.

V15 is meaningless, but i'd go so far as to say the entire V100 rankings are arbitrary.

you have to select your criteria, then rank for those. it changes depending on the metrics.

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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby thesealocust » Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:03 am

I'm going to play contrarian here and say it's a useful distinction. Not because it's real (it's not) or because it matters (it doesn't) but because people need to discuss things on this board with a measure of anonymity.

It's a little pedantic, but... what's the alternative? "I work for a very large firm with many strong practice areas and recognition in an east coast city" just takes way more words :P

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Detrox
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Detrox » Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:09 am

c3pO4 wrote:+ 1 billion. there are v60's in certain markets that you'd be a fool to turn down. vault isn't even respected in the industry -- firms prefer amlaw and chambers. it's all about what practice areas you care about, who the top partners are, and who the clients are, and location.

vault is fully meaningless. classic example - WSGR is a top 3 firm in the bay area for tech. vault ranking? #50. what is that firm that represents Facebook on their IPO called? Fenwick and West? vault ranking? none. wll you turn your nose up to alston and bird (v53) in atlanta? perkins coie (#66) in the northwest? just lol.

by compensation, the top firms are wachtell, susman, irell, kirkland, boies. some are ranked well, some not.

V15 is meaningless, but i'd go so far as to say the entire V100 rankings are arbitrary.

you have to select your criteria, then rank for those. it changes depending on the metrics.


To say it's fully meaningless is to go too far. It certainly garners recognition if simply by being the most popular form of ranking. To deny that it is a definite yardstick for some level of accomplishment is simply a form of wishful thinking held by those who are primarily within its bottom ranks. To treat it as gospel where each 5 slots determines your relative ability, on the other hand, is to provide it with too much power.

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IAFG
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby IAFG » Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:18 am

Detrox wrote:To say it's fully meaningless is to go too far. It certainly garners recognition if simply by being the most popular form of ranking. To deny that it is a definite yardstick for some level of accomplishment is simply a form of wishful thinking held by those who are primarily within its bottom ranks. To treat it as gospel where each 5 slots determines your relative ability, on the other hand, is to provide it with too much power.

In non-NYC markets, it's pretty damn meaningless. Try applying the vault rankings to DC or LA or Miami or Texas; you're not going to get anywhere near the actual pecking order. For people in NY, it should still be taken with a grain of salt; I don't think anyone with any clue would choose certain non-NY based firms with weak presences (e.g. Sidley) over other solid NY options.

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Grizz
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Grizz » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:36 am

lol vault

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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Big Shrimpin » Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:49 am

dood wrote:
Dany wrote:OP outed as working at a VsixTTTeen.


i LOLd for real and hard

but lets be honest, there is no prestige in law to begin with. all those names listed on vault dont mean shit. things that are prestigious: rhodes scholarship, SCOTUS clerkship, G&S, bain capital, st. tropez, etc <- no law firm fits into this list

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Old Gregg
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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Old Gregg » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:02 am

For "prestige," the Vault 100 is perfectly fine. The ranking isn't meant to measure how good a firm is. It's just meant to measure how prestigious a firm is. It's well known that prestige doesn't have a strong correlation to quality. For example, while Mercedes is highly prestigious, the are other auto brands that will fetch you more for your money.

Insofar as the "prestige" rankings track stability of firms, they're actually pretty good for a rough indicator. It should be no surprise that as you go further down the rankings, the stability decreases.

Insofar as the "prestige" rankings track compensation, it's also well known that there isn't a strong connection.

Whether the distinction between V15 and V20 and V10 or whatever is significant is another question altogether. The fact is that the distinction doesn't matter because there's nothing really, at the end of the day, different between the quality of Cleary and the quality of Paul Weiss. For any recruiter, they're both basically "top ten" law firms. So yes, at the edges and with exceptions, these distinctions don't make sense. But again as a rough guide, they are helpful. There actually is a substantive difference between a Shearman, a Jones Day, and a White & Case on the one hand, and a Simpson, a Cleary, and a Davis Polk on the other. Therefore, I would actually say that there probably is a distinction between V15 and (the rest), with some obvious exceptions. For me, beyond the V15, all law firms are pretty interchangeable.

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Re: PSA: There is no such distinction as "V15"

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:17 am

dood wrote:
Dany wrote:OP outed as working at a VsixTTTeen.


i LOLd for real and hard

but lets be honest, there is no prestige in law to begin with. all those names listed on vault dont mean shit. things that are prestigious: rhodes scholarship, SCOTUS clerkship, G&S, bain capital, st. tropez, etc <- no law firm fits into this list


With the exception of the Rhodes, none of those things is prestigious to your average person.




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