Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

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Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:29 am

Just curious...Is it possible to still get hired for a federal clerkship post grad if you never externed under a judge?

My 1L summer I worked at a small firm and 2L summer position is also at a firm.

Obviously I know grades, school, and LR are all way important as well. Just curious if you are at a serious disadvantage if you haven't externed under a judge during law school when you apply

Thanks!

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IAFG
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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby IAFG » Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:33 am

YES, you can. Conventional wisdom is that it isn't even a boost for getting good clerkships. This cycle's 1Ls seem to think judicial externships are somehow better or more useful than other 1L jobs, and I don't know where that flame came from.

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Grizz
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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby Grizz » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:32 am

IAFG wrote:YES, you can. Conventional wisdom is that it isn't even a boost for getting good clerkships. This cycle's 1Ls seem to think judicial externships are somehow better or more useful than other 1L jobs, and I don't know where that flame came from.

Every year TLS tells 1Ls that what you do 1L summer pretty much doesn't matter, as long as it's legal. Every year, 1Ls don't listen.

2LLLL
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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby 2LLLL » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:48 pm

YES, you can. Conventional wisdom is that it isn't even a boost for getting good clerkships. This cycle's 1Ls seem to think judicial externships are somehow better or more useful than other 1L jobs, and I don't know where that flame came from.



I wouldn't say that it's not a boost at all, I know a few people who ended up getting clerkships from judges they externed with.

What I would say is that, to build on something GTL Rev. has highlighted, is that externing could be an "and" factor. As in, judges are looking for candidates with good grades and [LR/Published/etc...]. If you have good grades and LR and externed for the judge, then provided the externship went well you'd probably be more successful than someone with just good grades and LR. Query, however, where an externship ranks among the various "and" factors (LR, publication, strong recs, prestigious summer positions, etc...).

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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby Guchster » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Just curious...Is it possible to still get hired for a federal clerkship post grad if you never externed under a judge?

My 1L summer I worked at a small firm and 2L summer position is also at a firm.

Obviously I know grades, school, and LR are all way important as well. Just curious if you are at a serious disadvantage if you haven't externed under a judge during law school when you apply

Thanks!


This shit does not matter. No one even cares. This externship bullshit is just so you can get a jerb to talk about when you're trying to find a jerb during eip/oci. if you can find something else that pays + legally related, just do that

A judge came to talk to us and said that he and other members of the 2nd circuit don't like to hire people who interned with them before--it actually puts you at a disadvantage there. They like diversity of candidates he said.

I also don't buy the 'and' factor thing for most judges. I think a 1L SA is just as impressive as a judicial externship, as a PI job/government job. grades + pub makes all the difference. I doubt having an internship vs. a SA vs. USAO gig you're 1L summer is going to determine who he hires first.

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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby ph14 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:55 pm

Guchster wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Just curious...Is it possible to still get hired for a federal clerkship post grad if you never externed under a judge?

My 1L summer I worked at a small firm and 2L summer position is also at a firm.

Obviously I know grades, school, and LR are all way important as well. Just curious if you are at a serious disadvantage if you haven't externed under a judge during law school when you apply

Thanks!


This shit does not matter. No one even cares. This externship bullshit is just so you can get a jerb to talk about when you're trying to find a jerb during eip/oci. if you can find something else that pays + legally related, just do that



Credited.

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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:58 pm

The clerkship advisor at my school mentioned that some judges have explicit rules that they will not hire their former externs as clerks. Not sure why they would do that, other than to deter obsessive 1Ls trying to get a leg up on a very competitive job. I don't think this is a common rule, but it speaks to the likelihood than an externship will lead to a clerkship

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ph14
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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby ph14 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:The clerkship advisor at my school mentioned that some judges have explicit rules that they will not hire their former externs. Not sure why they would do that, other than to deter obsessive 1Ls trying to get a leg up on a very competitive job. I don't think this is a common rule, but it speaks to the likelihood than an externship will lead to a clerkship


I've heard this often as well, not sure about the validity of it though.

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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby kalvano » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:05 pm

ph14 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The clerkship advisor at my school mentioned that some judges have explicit rules that they will not hire their former externs. Not sure why they would do that, other than to deter obsessive 1Ls trying to get a leg up on a very competitive job. I don't think this is a common rule, but it speaks to the likelihood than an externship will lead to a clerkship


I've heard this often as well, not sure about the validity of it though.


All of the federal judges here (Texas) who advertise for interns during school explicitly say that interning with them during school precludes you from a clerkship after school.

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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby Citizen Genet » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:42 pm

kalvano wrote:
ph14 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The clerkship advisor at my school mentioned that some judges have explicit rules that they will not hire their former externs. Not sure why they would do that, other than to deter obsessive 1Ls trying to get a leg up on a very competitive job. I don't think this is a common rule, but it speaks to the likelihood than an externship will lead to a clerkship


I've heard this often as well, not sure about the validity of it though.


All of the federal judges here (Texas) who advertise for interns during school explicitly say that interning with them during school precludes you from a clerkship after school.


+.5. I am sure judges recruiting there say that. I know there are other federal judges (in Texas) who hire primarily from their intern pool, but do not release that information so they aren't overwhelmed with intern applicants or give people expectations.

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kalvano
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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby kalvano » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:55 pm

Citizen Genet wrote:
kalvano wrote:
ph14 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The clerkship advisor at my school mentioned that some judges have explicit rules that they will not hire their former externs. Not sure why they would do that, other than to deter obsessive 1Ls trying to get a leg up on a very competitive job. I don't think this is a common rule, but it speaks to the likelihood than an externship will lead to a clerkship


I've heard this often as well, not sure about the validity of it though.


All of the federal judges here (Texas) who advertise for interns during school explicitly say that interning with them during school precludes you from a clerkship after school.


+.5. I am sure judges recruiting there say that. I know there are other federal judges (in Texas) who hire primarily from their intern pool, but do not release that information so they aren't overwhelmed with intern applicants or give people expectations.



Maybe. But the people I know who have interned for a judge said the policy was pretty clear and explicit.

As an example, straight from Symplicity -

Both terms will last a minimum of six weeks. Applicants are also requested to include: (1) a résumé clearly identifying your law school, anticipated date of
graduation, current GPA, and estimated class rank, if available; (2) an unofficial law school transcript; and (3) one letter of recommendation. Those who actually serve as summer interns in Judge XXX chambers will not be considered for post-graduation judicial clerkships with Judge XXX.

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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby adonai » Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:16 pm

Wonder what the rationale is for not hiring former externs. Seems overly one night standish to me. If anything, they're more familiar with the type of work and environment of the chambers.

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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby 2LLLL » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:25 pm

I think there are 3 categories of judges:

(1) Judges who primarily hire interns because they know their work quality/habits

(2) Judges who don't hire interns because they don't want people gunning during their internship in hopes of locking down a clerkship

(3) Judges who could care less whether you intern for them or not when hiring clerks

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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby traydeuce » Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:53 am

2LLLL wrote:I think there are 3 categories of judges:

(1) Judges who primarily hire interns because they know their work quality/habits


Is this some kind of flame? I've heard of the rare case where a judge hires a former intern, but there are no judges out there who primarily hire former interns. The qualifications for interning and clerking are miles apart; even if one wanted to, it would be impossible to only hire former interns. Occasionally you'll have an intern who happens to be clerk material, but it's rarely the case.

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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby Guchster » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:08 am

traydeuce wrote:
2LLLL wrote:I think there are 3 categories of judges:

(1) Judges who primarily hire interns because they know their work quality/habits


Is this some kind of flame? I've heard of the rare case where a judge hires a former intern, but there are no judges out there who primarily hire former interns. The qualifications for interning and clerking are miles apart; even if one wanted to, it would be impossible to only hire former interns. Occasionally you'll have an intern who happens to be clerk material, but it's rarely the case.


ETA: Please show me ONE judge who "primarily" hires his/her interns as clerks--or even hires more than one intern.

madame defarge
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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby madame defarge » Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:21 pm

I screened all of the clerkship applications in the chambers where I clerked (semi-feeder on 2/9/DC). Externships helped IF the judge was one of my judge's trusted friends or colleagues AND proactively contacted chambers about the candidate. By no means was an externship required, however.

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cantaboot
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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby cantaboot » Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:30 pm

if you are asking about state court clerkships - then the answer would be different.
I know at least a few judges hired their ex-interns who have middling grades.
those ex-interns then worked for V20. It's about connections.

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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby traydeuce » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:33 pm

^^ Of course, I think we could think of all sorts of people with middling grades and no externships who clerked for state ct judges.

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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby cantaboot » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:37 pm

I went to law school 'ITE' - so to me law clerks at state courts are quite bright (top 1/3 at a decent T30 school, or top 10% at a borderline T1). I've never met a really 'average' law clerk over the past few years.

so when I read the profile of a former law clerk without honors working at a T20 I was stunned.

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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby traydeuce » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:42 pm

Oh, well our differences are definitional, then - top 1/3 at a decent t30 school is kind of my idea of the very essence of middling grades, and perhaps of the opposite of a "quite bright" person.

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cantaboot
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Re: Can you get a clerkship w/o externing for a judge?

Postby cantaboot » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:52 pm

I am just an average law graduate - so I use a reasonableness standard.

More people fall below the top 1/3 mark than those who do not.

average would be in the 40-60% range.

perhaps I am 'elitist' to some people too. When I saw someone without honors and were not on journals clerked for a state judge and works with a V20 I was amazed.

Then, there were people who said state courts use criteria other than grades.




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