Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

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r6_philly
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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:17 am

Let me rephrase this in another way. If you have A/A- on your transcript and 1 or 2 B- and get dinged by firms, you have more problems than a couple of bad grades. I mean, if 6-7 As are not getting you the job, what would?

Take it easy people. You did great. Literally 70-80% of the class get good paying jobs. You'd have to try hard to sink your chances.

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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:08 am

r6_philly wrote:Take it easy people. You did great. Literally 70-80% of the class get good paying jobs. You'd have to try hard to sink your chances.

That all sounds good (and I love it) until I see those 3Ls wandering the halls because they cannot find work.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:28 am

Anonymous User wrote:
r6_philly wrote:Take it easy people. You did great. Literally 70-80% of the class get good paying jobs. You'd have to try hard to sink your chances.

That all sounds good (and I love it) until I see those 3Ls wandering the halls because they cannot find work.


That's sort of my point. Worry about how to sell yourself and get a job instead of worrying about grades you already have. (can't change them anyway)

Most if not all of us would be able to get an interview. At that point, you need to show other stuff. The lower your grades are, the more other qualities you should have (generalization). The unemployed don't have jobs for different reasons. Not all smart people make good employees, so their grades may not have anything to do with it.

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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:People below median can (and do) get biglaw jobs coming out of Penn. The only thing that could possibly sink you is shitty interview skills and/or a failtastic bidding strategy.

Exactly, what is an example of a failtastic bidding strategy? Better yet, what is an effective bidding strategy? Does the strategy change for those above median vs. below median?

LawIdiot86
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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby LawIdiot86 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:43 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:People below median can (and do) get biglaw jobs coming out of Penn. The only thing that could possibly sink you is shitty interview skills and/or a failtastic bidding strategy.

Exactly, what is an example of a failtastic bidding strategy? Better yet, what is an effective bidding strategy? Does the strategy change for those above median vs. below median?


A failtastic bidding strategy for someone with a 3.53 at Penn would be ranking the NY and DC offices of the V10 as their first 15 bids as these firms are looking for the elite GPAs. Another failtastic strategy of picking the 10 most popular firms by prior year bid/interview ratios because then you won't get many interviews. Also, bidding on the best firm in 10 markets or the same firm in 10 markets is failtastic because you'll never convince a screener you have connections to 10 markets. One effective bid strategy is to bid in 2-3 markets for the firms that have traditionally hired at or below your GPA and ensure it is an even mix of firms with popular bid/interview ratios and firms with easy to achieve bid/interview ratios. At a place like Penn this might change only to the extent that there might be few firms hiring at or below a GPA below the median or they might all be super-popular firms (because of their low GPA). In that case, you want to find firms that aren't too high above your GPA, but that you can still find a strong enough connection to that you might overcome the grades. For example, Kramer Levin is known as a great corporate law-focused shop. If your grades were a bit below their historical median, but you were a former investment banker, it would still be a good idea to bid on them. There are of course limits to this. Even if you somehow used to do litigation-related work, a low GPA will disqualify you at Boies.

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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:46 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:People below median can (and do) get biglaw jobs coming out of Penn. The only thing that could possibly sink you is shitty interview skills and/or a failtastic bidding strategy.

Exactly, what is an example of a failtastic bidding strategy? Better yet, what is an effective bidding strategy? Does the strategy change for those above median vs. below median?



1. A fatalistic bidding strategy matters at the margins (bottom quartile), but an example would be to bid only on firms no longer in existence, to bid exclusively on firms in locations to which you have ZERO connections, or to target the V10s (and only V10s) in DC, and the V5s (and only V5s) in NYC.

2. An effective bidding strategy depends on (1) your spring grades; (2) how low you are on the aspie scale; (3) related, how you handle yourself in interviews/callbacks; (4) what type of law you think you want to practice; (5) where you want practice it, where you worked over 1L summer; and (6) what other relevant things (WE, undergrad honors, athletic prowess, looks/body type) make you the little special snowflake that you are. For most effective risk-reward strategy: sprinkle in a few V10s (just for giggles), target heavily NYC V10-50 based on class size, and sprinkle in V100s.
[Also, for you super-job-gunner types, if you're from a secondary market, don't waste any bids on your hometown firms. Instead, mass mail them NOW for a 1L position, and reach out to some attorney with whom you have a connection and grab coffee with him/her/herm over break. Then, over the summer, mass mail them again for 2L summer interviews and reach out to your contact/mentor about getting an interview.]

3. Within a certain % of median, I don't think changing strategy matters much. Only at the margins would you drastically change your bidding strategy one way or the other.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
3. Within a certain % of median, I don't think changing strategy matters much. Only at the margins would you drastically change your bidding strategy one way or the other.


+1

Around median, your strategy can be formed by multiple factors. At the low margins, you should target getting ANY job.

Since we don't pre-select, it's probably best to try to get your face in front of as many screeners as possible with marginal grades, and work on interview skills. Come up with a strategy to sell yourself over other students with marginal grades (the other 150+ of them).

I also agree, with secondary markets, do the legwork yourself before OCI. They may tell you to go through OCI, or they may interview you before/outside of OCI.

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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Also, for you super-job-gunner types, if you're from a secondary market, don't waste any bids on your hometown firms. Instead, mass mail them NOW for a 1L position, and reach out to some attorney with whom you have a connection and grab coffee with him/her/herm over break. Then, over the summer, mass mail them again for 2L summer interviews and reach out to your contact/mentor about getting an interview.


Sorry to hijack, but wouldn't it be better to use 1L summer to get a foothold in a different market, like your school's major market, so you aren't putting all your eggs in your hometown secondary market basket?

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Sorry to hijack, but wouldn't it be better to use 1L summer to get a foothold in a different market, like your school's major market, so you aren't putting all your eggs in your hometown secondary market basket?


Penn's major market is NYC. Most people are going to big NYC anyway, there isn't much connection building you can or need to do.

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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also, for you super-job-gunner types, if you're from a secondary market, don't waste any bids on your hometown firms. Instead, mass mail them NOW for a 1L position, and reach out to some attorney with whom you have a connection and grab coffee with him/her/herm over break. Then, over the summer, mass mail them again for 2L summer interviews and reach out to your contact/mentor about getting an interview.


Sorry to hijack, but wouldn't it be better to use 1L summer to get a foothold in a different market, like your school's major market, so you aren't putting all your eggs in your hometown secondary market basket?


Original Anon, here.

I think you're right, using your 1L summer to establish the "why [city]?" screening question is very important. If you have no connections to an area, it's crucial. I had zero connections to major market, but worked unpaid government/PD/USAO-type stuff over my 1L summer, and it helped tremendously in interviews. On the other hand, it depends. If you have lived/went to school/have a SO in your target market, it's not as important to work there 1L summer. And if you are targeting NYC, it's not important, at all. In either case, getting paid at a firm job--even in a secondary market--is awesome if you can get it, and you can spin it a number of ways to screening interviewers when they ask "Why did you work in [secondary city]?"

My point, which I didn't make clear above, was that if you are worried about striking out with major markets and want a back up plan, now is the time to be establishing some sort of relationship with attorneys in your home-secondary market. If you wait until July when you realize your bid list looks like shit, you're likely too late. And if you wait until September when you realize you have 1 callback, you look like you're now asking the ugly step-sister only because Cinderalla went with Prince Charming. Hopefully no one will be in that situation, but it doesn't hurt to have mentors/contacts in your home market in any event.

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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:32 am

Another Penn 1L here. I ended up with A, A, B+, B+. No idea where this puts me rank-wise. CPP just told me that I "did well", and avoided my question about where in the class these grades put me.

I know I'm almost certainly not top 10%, but does anyone have an idea where that cutoff would be?

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby r6_philly » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:39 am

Anonymous User wrote:Another Penn 1L here. I ended up with A, A, B+, B+. No idea where this puts me rank-wise. CPP just told me that I "did well", and avoided my question about where in the class these grades put me.

I know I'm almost certainly not top 10%, but does anyone have an idea where that cutoff would be?


It's probably more like 15% depending on your section. But why does it matter?

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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:58 am

r6_philly wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Another Penn 1L here. I ended up with A, A, B+, B+. No idea where this puts me rank-wise. CPP just told me that I "did well", and avoided my question about where in the class these grades put me.

I know I'm almost certainly not top 10%, but does anyone have an idea where that cutoff would be?


It's probably more like 15% depending on your section. But why does it matter?


Mostly because some 1L SA postings say they are seeking students in top 15% of class, top 20% etc.

Also, curious about the cutoff for LR purposes.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby r6_philly » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:44 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mostly because some 1L SA postings say they are seeking students in top 15% of class, top 20% etc.

Also, curious about the cutoff for LR purposes.


You don't generally get 1L SAs purely because of grades, they look for other qualities. The same percentages are posted across schools and mean very little to most firms.

We don't have a straight grade on policy I don't think, so competition is where the action is.

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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:56 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Mostly because some 1L SA postings say they are seeking students in top 15% of class, top 20% etc.

Also, curious about the cutoff for LR purposes.


You don't generally get 1L SAs purely because of grades, they look for other qualities. The same percentages are posted across schools and mean very little to most firms.

We don't have a straight grade on policy I don't think, so competition is where the action is.


Grades are considered for journal - something like if you're top 22 GPA-wise and not the bottom 1/4 of the writing competition you grade on, and vice versa for writing on. Then there's 8 or 10 spots for exceptional diversity statements. That's how it was last year, at least. I have a high GPA and the writing competition was awful for me so I'm pretty sure I graded on, but you can't really be certain. In terms of OCI, anecdotally, everyone I know who wanted a biglaw job got several offers.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby r6_philly » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Grades are considered for journal - something like if you're top 22 GPA-wise and not the bottom 1/4 of the writing competition you grade on, and vice versa for writing on. Then there's 8 or 10 spots for exceptional diversity statements. That's how it was last year, at least. I have a high GPA and the writing competition was awful for me so I'm pretty sure I graded on, but you can't really be certain. In terms of OCI, anecdotally, everyone I know who wanted a biglaw job got several offers.


That's true about grading on, but my point is, your grades are your grades, does it really matter trying to figure out top 10% vs top 15%? There is no strict grade on, your writing competition performance can be compensated for by your grades/rank but you still have to enter the competition and try to do well.

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5ky
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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby 5ky » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:33 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Grades are considered for journal - something like if you're top 22 GPA-wise and not the bottom 1/4 of the writing competition you grade on, and vice versa for writing on. Then there's 8 or 10 spots for exceptional diversity statements. That's how it was last year, at least. I have a high GPA and the writing competition was awful for me so I'm pretty sure I graded on, but you can't really be certain. In terms of OCI, anecdotally, everyone I know who wanted a biglaw job got several offers.


That's true about grading on, but my point is, your grades are your grades, does it really matter trying to figure out top 10% vs top 15%? There is no strict grade on, your writing competition performance can be compensated for by your grades/rank but you still have to enter the competition and try to do well.


Come on, just let people have their fun and get off your soapbox.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby r6_philly » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:38 pm

5ky wrote:
Come on, just let people have their fun and get off your soapbox.


If you can get on it, so can I.

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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:40 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Grades are considered for journal - something like if you're top 22 GPA-wise and not the bottom 1/4 of the writing competition you grade on, and vice versa for writing on. Then there's 8 or 10 spots for exceptional diversity statements. That's how it was last year, at least. I have a high GPA and the writing competition was awful for me so I'm pretty sure I graded on, but you can't really be certain. In terms of OCI, anecdotally, everyone I know who wanted a biglaw job got several offers.


That's true about grading on, but my point is, your grades are your grades, does it really matter trying to figure out top 10% vs top 15%? There is no strict grade on, your writing competition performance can be compensated for by your grades/rank but you still have to enter the competition and try to do well.


Yeah, not trying to disagree with you here, just trying to set the record straight regarding how getting on a journal works. You won't even know your second semester grades at the time of the writing competition anyway.

PS the writing competition is an awful experience.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby r6_philly » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
PS the writing competition is an awful experience.


Can't be that bad can it? I'm looking forward to it.

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Re: Penn Law Student here with 3.53 GPA

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:New Penn 1L here. 3.58 overall GPA (I think). Fairly consistent: A, A-, B+, B+. Where approximately does this fall in the class rank. I here it is above median, but I don't know exactly where it would put me overall or what my ceiling would be as far as firms. Thoughts?

My grades mirror yours except for one dreadful difference, where you have an A I have a B (ug!). No idea where that places me, guessing somewhere south of 40% (hopefully, not terribly south). GPA wise, perhaps a 3.4. . . hopefully. I suspect a better second half could lift me near the top 33%.




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