1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

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Veyron
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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Veyron » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:25 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Stay if you are fine with the possibility of being a lawyer who doesn't work biglaw. And quite frankly bottom quarter does not rule out biglaw. If you are from a secondary market, particularly one where your MVPB has a lot of cache (i.e the South for UVA, Milwaukee for Michigan, Philly for Penn etc.) there's a good chance that you can hustle your way to biglaw there.


With that said start building a strong PI resume. If you don't get biglaw you will need it for PI jobs--volunteer experience, networking, and course selection can help a lot for PI. And if you do end up in a position to get biglaw it won't be too much trouble to explain away that sort of resume. However, the opposite is very rarely true.


Lol'd hard.



0L's shouldn't comment on topics that they know nothing about. They tend to end up looking like fools--like you're about to.

I'm a 2L at one of the bolded who landed a secondary market biglaw job in the region where my MPVB has a lot of strength. Specifically one of the one's I named that you bolded. I have a substantially worse class rank than the OP. Again be careful about posting in employment forums with your limited knowledge. It's dangerous to people like the OP who need legitimate assistance.


OCI stats at Penn confirm this. Bottom 25% grades are workable with local firms.


Not quite sure what the cutoff for bottom 25% is but some Philly firms fill their classes with B average kids from Penn. Best to have ties to the region if you're going to take this route.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:51 pm

Duke, Michigan, Georgetown and Cornell play worse than Penn, Northwestern and Texas because they lack a secondary market. Bottom 25% at a place like Georgetown is pretty much impossible for NLJ250 absent patent/URM.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby r6_philly » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Duke, Michigan, Georgetown and Cornell play worse than Penn, Northwestern and Texas because they lack a secondary market. Bottom 25% at a place like Georgetown is pretty much impossible for NLJ250 absent patent/URM.


Perhaps, but the thread title says MVPB.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:00 am

r6_philly wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Duke, Michigan, Georgetown and Cornell play worse than Penn, Northwestern and Texas because they lack a secondary market. Bottom 25% at a place like Georgetown is pretty much impossible for NLJ250 absent patent/URM.


Perhaps, but the thread title says MVPB.


Very true, my bad. For bottom 25%, Virginia seems to play closer to Cornell and Georgetown and Berk plays closer to Penn.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:46 am

LawIdiot86 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Duke, Michigan, Georgetown and Cornell play worse than Penn, Northwestern and Texas because they lack a secondary market. Bottom 25% at a place like Georgetown is pretty much impossible for NLJ250 absent patent/URM.


Perhaps, but the thread title says MVPB.


Very true, my bad. For bottom 25%, Virginia seems to play closer to Cornell and Georgetown and Berk plays closer to Penn.


I thought most of the south liked UVA and many secondary market firms like to add UVA grads when they can? In fact, I think there was a guy in the bottom 5% at UVA posting here a while back who got a market paying SA in the south.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Old Gregg » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Duke, Michigan, Georgetown and Cornell play worse than Penn, Northwestern and Texas because they lack a secondary market. Bottom 25% at a place like Georgetown is pretty much impossible for NLJ250 absent patent/URM.


Perhaps, but the thread title says MVPB.


Very true, my bad. For bottom 25%, Virginia seems to play closer to Cornell and Georgetown and Berk plays closer to Penn.


I thought most of the south liked UVA and many secondary market firms like to add UVA grads when they can? In fact, I think there was a guy in the bottom 5% at UVA posting here a while back who got a market paying SA in the south.


Who knows? The guy you're quoting is full of shit. These minute differences between the schools are fictional at best.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:27 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
I thought most of the south liked UVA and many secondary market firms like to add UVA grads when they can? In fact, I think there was a guy in the bottom 5% at UVA posting here a while back who got a market paying SA in the south.


Who knows? The guy you're quoting is full of shit. These minute differences between the schools are fictional at best.


There is always some exceptional person who can buck the trend, but they aren't the rule. There are simply fewer market paying SA slots in the south(east) or secondary markets then there are in say Chicago or LA. If UVA is placing 47% in NLJ250 firms (http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/2011/03/class-of-2010-nlj-250-statistics/) and throwing off stories like http://abovethelaw.com/2011/08/uva-laws-employment-numbers-are-less-than-impressive/, being in the bottom 25% means you'll need something incredible (URM+IP, PhD, perfect personality+ties) to get a market paying SA slot in a secondary market and even then it'll be a coin toss.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby r6_philly » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:45 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:
There is always some exceptional person who can buck the trend, but they aren't the rule. There are simply fewer market paying SA slots in the south(east) or secondary markets then there are in say Chicago or LA. If UVA is placing 47% in NLJ250 firms (http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/2011/03/class-of-2010-nlj-250-statistics/) and throwing off stories like http://abovethelaw.com/2011/08/uva-laws-employment-numbers-are-less-than-impressive/, being in the bottom 25% means you'll need something incredible (URM+IP, PhD, perfect personality+ties) to get a market paying SA slot in a secondary market and even then it'll be a coin toss.


http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/career/stats.htm

100+ firms: 190
Clerks: 52
Government 50
Total: 292

292/374 = 78%

So it depends on where if the government positions are as competitive as lower tier 100+ law firm jobs. Even if you say 25 (half) of the government jobs are not competitive, you still have 267/374 = 71.4%.

Basically 25% is simply border line, you don't need to be an exceptional person to get a decent job.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby los blancos » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Duke, Michigan, Georgetown and Cornell play worse than Penn, Northwestern and Texas because they lack a secondary market. Bottom 25% at a place like Georgetown is pretty much impossible for NLJ250 absent patent/URM.



Um, No? Three metropolitan areas between 1m-2m population in its own state. Duke has plenty of secondary markets and is even located within one. Ties are the issue with most kids, as they are everywhere.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:01 pm

OP, I am in a worse position than you. Bottom 10% at MVPB after first semester. There's still next semester for us to improve, but assuming I do get median next semester, I will still be bottom 3rd. We'll have to lower our expectations, but we should aim for hometown secondary markets and non-market paying gigs. I hope midlaw is still possible for those in our shoes (although mine is worse).

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP, I am in a worse position than you. Bottom 10% at MVPB after first semester. There's still next semester for us to improve, but assuming I do get median next semester, I will still be bottom 3rd. We'll have to lower our expectations, but we should aim for hometown secondary markets and non-market paying gigs. I hope midlaw is still possible for those in our shoes (although mine is worse).


Lets be very clear, most secondary markets will require as high or higher grades then your home market, even for "midlaw" (at least as far as Penn is concerned).You should be making plans based on the idea that you will not be able to land a summer associate gig. You should be bidding and mass mailing EVERY firm in both home, secondary, non-market paying, secondary, etc.

I really don't get where people got the idea that midlaw is easier. Trust me, I've been through that wringer, midlaw firms can be some of the most grade selective. Who wouldn't want better hours, more job security, and more interesting work?

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Old Gregg » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:56 pm

Who wouldn't want better hours, more job security, and more interesting work?


"Midlaw" has none of these three qualities.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:24 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
Who wouldn't want better hours, more job security, and more interesting work?


"Midlaw" has none of these three qualities.


Whachu know about midlaw?

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Old Gregg » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:35 pm

Veyron wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
Who wouldn't want better hours, more job security, and more interesting work?


"Midlaw" has none of these three qualities.


Idiot. Whachu know about midlaw?


You seem to have a knack for parroting the same tropes that every other unimaginative moron here does: (1) that you will get fired by year 2 in biglaw; (2) that all you do is doc review; and (3) you bill a shit-ton of hours. I can tell you right now that, in my experience as a junior associate and looking at associates above me, only (3) is true of biglaw as far as I'm aware.

My friends in midlaw? They make less money, work the same hours, and have pretty uninteresting work. Job security is also variable and highly firm-dependent. Me? I've literally done two nights of doc review in my whole time as an associate, get to work on cutting edge matters for the world's largest corporations, write substantive motions, and I get paid a lot of money. I'm also pretty certain that I won't get pushed out for at least 6-7 years if I continue to do solid work. And when I do get pushed out, I can kick it at that midlaw firm you love so much, among other things.

The only "smaller" firms that do interesting work and provide more job security are boutiques.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:14 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
Who wouldn't want better hours, more job security, and more interesting work?


"Midlaw" has none of these three qualities.


Idiot. Whachu know about midlaw?


You seem to have a knack for parroting the same tropes that every other unimaginative moron here does: (1) that you will get fired by year 2 in biglaw; (2) that all you do is doc review; and (3) you bill a shit-ton of hours. I can tell you right now that, in my experience as a junior associate and looking at associates above me, only (3) is true of biglaw as far as I'm aware.

My friends in midlaw? They make less money, work the same hours, and have pretty uninteresting work. Job security is also variable and highly firm-dependent. Me? I've literally done two nights of doc review in my whole time as an associate, get to work on cutting edge matters for the world's largest corporations, write substantive motions, and I get paid a lot of money. I'm also pretty certain that I won't get pushed out for at least 6-7 years if I continue to do solid work. And when I do get pushed out, I can kick it at that midlaw firm you love so much, among other things.

The only "smaller" firms that do interesting work and provide more job security are boutiques.


(The world revolves around NYC)

Also, at the firm I'm going to, its not uncommon for associates to 2nd chair trials for fortune 500 companies year 1 or 2. Substantive motions, lol. I don't see how you could find that the apex of interesting.
Last edited by Veyron on Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Old Gregg » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:15 pm

Also, at the firm I'm going to, its not uncommon for associates to 2nd chair trials for fortune 500 companies year 1 or 2. Substantive motions, lol.


Sounds like you're just butthurt for not getting biglaw.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:16 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
Also, at the firm I'm going to, its not uncommon for associates to 2nd chair trials for fortune 500 companies year 1 or 2. Substantive motions, lol.


Sounds like you're just butthurt for not getting biglaw.


Yes. I dreamed of cranking out substantive motions. Now I'll just have to go to court like the rest of the proles.

Seriously though, my market doesn't really have "biglaw."

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Old Gregg » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:19 pm

Veyron wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
Also, at the firm I'm going to, its not uncommon for associates to 2nd chair trials for fortune 500 companies year 1 or 2. Substantive motions, lol.


Sounds like you're just butthurt for not getting biglaw.


Yes. I dreamed of cranking out substantive motions. Now I'll just have to go to court like the rest of the proles.

Seriously though, my market doesn't really have "biglaw."


Yeah... definitely butthurt. BTW, I was talking about substantive motions as a junior associate. But, I'm glad to know that you'll be second-charing bet-the-company litigation in your second yea.... yeahhh no. You're butthurt.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:46 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
Also, at the firm I'm going to, its not uncommon for associates to 2nd chair trials for fortune 500 companies year 1 or 2. Substantive motions, lol.


Sounds like you're just butthurt for not getting biglaw.


Yes. I dreamed of cranking out substantive motions. Now I'll just have to go to court like the rest of the proles.

Seriously though, my market doesn't really have "biglaw."


Yeah... definitely butthurt. BTW, I was talking about substantive motions as a junior associate. But, I'm glad to know that you'll be second-charing bet-the-company litigation in your second yea.... yeahhh no. You're butthurt.


Thank you. I'm glad you're happy for my success. Enjoy your substantive motions, they sound very important.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Old Gregg » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:49 pm

enjoy second-chairing trials over traffic violations!

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby IAFG » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:51 pm

Ugh. The most insufferable thing about NYC biglawyers is how they think everyone else just wishes they could be them. Veyron has been beating the "I don't want NYC" drum since he was a 1L and possibly since he was a 0L. Most of the people I know who bid on NYC did so out of fear and not aspirations. NYC fucking blows: shoebox apartments, sky-high taxes, terrible hours, and not even good bonuses (or any other worthwhile perk) lately to make up for it.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby booboo » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:56 pm

IAFG wrote:Ugh. The most insufferable thing about NYC biglawyers is how they think everyone else just wishes they could be them. Veyron has been beating the "I don't want NYC" drum since he was a 1L and possibly since he was a 0L. Most of the people I know who bid on NYC did so out of fear and not aspirations. NYC fucking blows: shoebox apartments, sky-high taxes, terrible hours, and not even good bonuses (or any other worthwhile perk) lately to make up for it.


I don't understand... Are you suggesting that life exists outside of New York City?

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby IAFG » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:57 pm

booboo wrote:
IAFG wrote:Ugh. The most insufferable thing about NYC biglawyers is how they think everyone else just wishes they could be them. Veyron has been beating the "I don't want NYC" drum since he was a 1L and possibly since he was a 0L. Most of the people I know who bid on NYC did so out of fear and not aspirations. NYC fucking blows: shoebox apartments, sky-high taxes, terrible hours, and not even good bonuses (or any other worthwhile perk) lately to make up for it.


I don't understand... Are you suggesting that life exists outside of New York City?

I think Rayiner might have something to add to a discussion about NYC QoL, if you're curious as to his thoughts

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Old Gregg » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:16 pm

Whether or not NYC sucks is irrelevant. Veyron was talking about biglaw, not NYC biglaw. And big firms in places like Texas aren't at all that selective.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Morgan12Oak » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:21 pm

IAFG wrote:Ugh. The most insufferable thing about NYC biglawyers is how they think everyone else just wishes they could be them. Veyron has been beating the "I don't want NYC" drum since he was a 1L and possibly since he was a 0L. Most of the people I know who bid on NYC did so out of fear and not aspirations. NYC fucking blows: shoebox apartments, sky-high taxes, terrible hours, and not even good bonuses (or any other worthwhile perk) lately to make up for it.


Empire state of mind. Make it in NYC, make it anywhere. Some people don't sign up for life to just get through it comfortably. Don't be ignorant - everything you listed as a negative just goes towards QoL. Unbelievably as it may seem, it actually is possible that some people value other factors like ability to work on top notch work and be in the center of the world.




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