1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

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1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:28 am

I currently have a 1L summer job lined up at a legal aid center, but I'm concerned about OCI. I don't know at this point whether I should prepare to work smarter and harder spring semester with the hope of raising my GPA or take a leave of absence.

I was a liberal arts major in college and am taking about 20k in debt per semester. My greatest fear is not being to pay back the 120k in total law school debt, so the leave of absence option would just be to cut the financial losses while they are still managable.

Penny for your thoughts?

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bk1
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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby bk1 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:31 am

Do you want to be a lawyer? If yes, stay.

Worst Case Scenario: 120k is manageable and you could still feasibly pay it off if you ended up with a 60k shitlaw job.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:48 am

Stay if you are fine with the possibility of being a lawyer who doesn't work biglaw. And quite frankly bottom quarter does not rule out biglaw. If you are from a secondary market, particularly one where your MVPB has a lot of cache (i.e the South for UVA, Milwaukee for Michigan, Philly for Penn etc.) there's a good chance that you can hustle your way to biglaw there.


With that said start building a strong PI resume. If you don't get biglaw you will need it for PI jobs--volunteer experience, networking, and course selection can help a lot for PI. And if you do end up in a position to get biglaw it won't be too much trouble to explain away that sort of resume. However, the opposite is very rarely true.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby johansantana21 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:Stay if you are fine with the possibility of being a lawyer who doesn't work biglaw. And quite frankly bottom quarter does not rule out biglaw. If you are from a secondary market, particularly one where your MVPB has a lot of cache (i.e the South for UVA, Milwaukee for Michigan, Philly for Penn etc.) there's a good chance that you can hustle your way to biglaw there.


With that said start building a strong PI resume. If you don't get biglaw you will need it for PI jobs--volunteer experience, networking, and course selection can help a lot for PI. And if you do end up in a position to get biglaw it won't be too much trouble to explain away that sort of resume. However, the opposite is very rarely true.


Lol'd hard.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:04 am

Unfortunately, my ties are to one of the major legal markets, so I doubt I'll have much luck in secondary markets.

I'm ok with PI. If I took a leave of absence, I'd probably spend the time off applying for non-legal government jobs.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Wholigan » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:44 am

johansantana21 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Stay if you are fine with the possibility of being a lawyer who doesn't work biglaw. And quite frankly bottom quarter does not rule out biglaw. If you are from a secondary market, particularly one where your MVPB has a lot of cache (i.e the South for UVA, Milwaukee for Michigan, Philly for Penn etc.) there's a good chance that you can hustle your way to biglaw there.


With that said start building a strong PI resume. If you don't get biglaw you will need it for PI jobs--volunteer experience, networking, and course selection can help a lot for PI. And if you do end up in a position to get biglaw it won't be too much trouble to explain away that sort of resume. However, the opposite is very rarely true.


Lol'd hard.



Don't see why you would do that, considering it's more or less accurate, and not very funny.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby johansantana21 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:50 am

Wholigan wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Stay if you are fine with the possibility of being a lawyer who doesn't work biglaw. And quite frankly bottom quarter does not rule out biglaw. If you are from a secondary market, particularly one where your MVPB has a lot of cache (i.e the South for UVA, Milwaukee for Michigan, Philly for Penn etc.) there's a good chance that you can hustle your way to biglaw there.


With that said start building a strong PI resume. If you don't get biglaw you will need it for PI jobs--volunteer experience, networking, and course selection can help a lot for PI. And if you do end up in a position to get biglaw it won't be too much trouble to explain away that sort of resume. However, the opposite is very rarely true.


Lol'd hard.



Don't see why you would do that, considering it's more or less accurate, and not very funny.


Being bottom 25% at a lower T14 with connections to a secondary market does not equal "a good chance that you can hustle your way to biglaw there".

Secondary markets have plenty of schools that they can recruit from. They won't dip to bottom 25% of lower T14 just because of it's a T14.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby IAFG » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:53 am

johansantana21 wrote:Being bottom 25% at a lower T14 with connections to a secondary market does not equal "a good chance that you can hustle your way to biglaw there".

Secondary markets have plenty of schools that they can recruit from. They won't dip to bottom 25% of lower T14 just because of it's a T14.

Depends on the firm and secondary market. Some firms in some cities will absolutely do that.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:56 am

During 1L at M, I went from a 3.2 (bottom 30%) first semester to a 3.8 second....ending up just under top 25%. Food for thought.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:58 am

I am a T10 2L, Bottom 25% with Biglaw SA lined up in secondary home market. Considering the fact that I had 3 offers, it is very achievable.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Unitas » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:01 am

IAFG wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Being bottom 25% at a lower T14 with connections to a secondary market does not equal "a good chance that you can hustle your way to biglaw there".

Secondary markets have plenty of schools that they can recruit from. They won't dip to bottom 25% of lower T14 just because of it's a T14.

Depends on the firm and secondary market. Some firms in some cities will absolutely do that.


I agree with this. Firms in secondary markets that rarely get T14 applicants will consider them regardless of their class rank. This is partly due to the fact their GPA will be around the same as applicants from local schools but their ranks will not be. Most T14 schools do not give accurate ranks so just put GPA and hope rank isn't brought up, which it often won't be. Also, most regional firms would like/enjoy having T14 students on their attorney bios.

However, the problem with this is you generally need regional ties to show you "want" to live there and don't just need a job that you'll leave at any moment and the hiring firms are much harder to find since they don't participate in OCI.

Edited to say I agreed with IAFG
Last edited by Unitas on Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:53 pm

<3.1 GULC w/ 2L SA in NYC lined up for this summer. All hope is not lost. Keep truckin'.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:57 pm

johansantana21 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Stay if you are fine with the possibility of being a lawyer who doesn't work biglaw. And quite frankly bottom quarter does not rule out biglaw. If you are from a secondary market, particularly one where your MVPB has a lot of cache (i.e the South for UVA, Milwaukee for Michigan, Philly for Penn etc.) there's a good chance that you can hustle your way to biglaw there.


With that said start building a strong PI resume. If you don't get biglaw you will need it for PI jobs--volunteer experience, networking, and course selection can help a lot for PI. And if you do end up in a position to get biglaw it won't be too much trouble to explain away that sort of resume. However, the opposite is very rarely true.


Lol'd hard.



0L's shouldn't comment on topics that they know nothing about. They tend to end up looking like fools--like you're about to.

I'm a 2L at one of the bolded who landed a secondary market biglaw job in the region where my MPVB has a lot of strength. Specifically one of the one's I named that you bolded. I have a substantially worse class rank than the OP. Again be careful about posting in employment forums with your limited knowledge. It's dangerous to people like the OP who need legitimate assistance.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:During 1L at M, I went from a 3.2 (bottom 30%) first semester to a 3.8 second....ending up just under top 25%. Food for thought.


Thanks, this is encouraging. What did you do differently that helped so much?

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:10 pm

Just posted this in another thread. Not sure if you saw it.

2L here. Below median at a T20 school. Probably bottom 20% now. Had a terrible first semester (2.1), but so far have managed to bring it up to a 2.9 as a 2L. Still have three semesters left to bring it up even more! I managed to get a 1L gig after my first year and now have a 2L gig at a different, mid-sized firm ($1700+/wk as a law clerk). Just don't give up. With such a low GPA my first semester, I was definitely in panic mode. But I will/would not give up without putting up a battle. My best advice is sell other attorneys/firms on your other credentials that would make you a good fit. Don't go into an coffee meetings/interviews with a defeated face. Just go in there and sell your other amazing qualities that got you into a T14 school.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby thesealocust » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:During 1L at M, I went from a 3.2 (bottom 30%) first semester to a 3.8 second....ending up just under top 25%. Food for thought.


My 1L year, our ENTIRE class wound up with an average of 3.3 (median) and then - get this - wound up not only getting an average of a 3.3 (median) second semester, but had a 3.3 (median) when you averaged first and second semester together! They called us the most qualified class in our law school's history, and as a group we got exactly average grades both semesters. Unbelievable.

Food for thought.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:During 1L at M, I went from a 3.2 (bottom 30%) first semester to a 3.8 second....ending up just under top 25%. Food for thought.


Thanks, this is encouraging. What did you do differently that helped so much?


I figured out what worked for me. I know that's not helpful...but that's what you need to do.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby 03121202698008 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:41 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:During 1L at M, I went from a 3.2 (bottom 30%) first semester to a 3.8 second....ending up just under top 25%. Food for thought.


My 1L year, our ENTIRE class wound up with an average of 3.3 (median) and then - get this - wound up not only getting an average of a 3.3 (median) second semester, but had a 3.3 (median) when you averaged first and second semester together! They called us the most qualified class in our law school's history, and as a group we got exactly average grades both semesters. Unbelievable.

Food for thought.


What does the average of everyone have to do with one person moving up the curve?

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby thesealocust » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:47 pm

blowhard wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:During 1L at M, I went from a 3.2 (bottom 30%) first semester to a 3.8 second....ending up just under top 25%. Food for thought.


My 1L year, our ENTIRE class wound up with an average of 3.3 (median) and then - get this - wound up not only getting an average of a 3.3 (median) second semester, but had a 3.3 (median) when you averaged first and second semester together! They called us the most qualified class in our law school's history, and as a group we got exactly average grades both semesters. Unbelievable.

Food for thought.


What does the average of everyone have to do with one person moving up the curve?


Literally every single anecdote about a GPA increase first to second semester is balanced out by a GPA decline first to second semester. If you know a guy who went up .6 then it is mathematically certain somebody else went down .6 (or two people went down .3, or what have you, but the general point remains).

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby 03121202698008 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:58 pm

thesealocust wrote:
blowhard wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:During 1L at M, I went from a 3.2 (bottom 30%) first semester to a 3.8 second....ending up just under top 25%. Food for thought.


My 1L year, our ENTIRE class wound up with an average of 3.3 (median) and then - get this - wound up not only getting an average of a 3.3 (median) second semester, but had a 3.3 (median) when you averaged first and second semester together! They called us the most qualified class in our law school's history, and as a group we got exactly average grades both semesters. Unbelievable.

Food for thought.


What does the average of everyone have to do with one person moving up the curve?


Literally every single anecdote about a GPA increase first to second semester is balanced out by a GPA decline first to second semester. If you know a guy who went up .6 then it is mathematically certain somebody else went down .6 (or two people went down .3, or what have you, but the general point remains).


No shit. But no need to be so pessimistic. Plus, at OP's position he's more likely to go up than down. Using that logic, people in the top 25% should drop out as they may decline to offset someone going up.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby thesealocust » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:02 pm

blowhard wrote:No shit. But no need to be so pessimistic. Plus, at OP's position he's more likely to go up than down. Using that logic, people in the top 25% should drop out as they may decline to offset someone going up.


Now, people in the top 25% should drop out because law school sucks and being a lawyer will be awful. People in the bottom 25% should drop out for those reasons plus the prospect of unemployment.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby Morgan12Oak » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:04 pm

johansantana21 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Stay if you are fine with the possibility of being a lawyer who doesn't work biglaw. And quite frankly bottom quarter does not rule out biglaw. If you are from a secondary market, particularly one where your MVPB has a lot of cache (i.e the South for UVA, Milwaukee for Michigan, Philly for Penn etc.) there's a good chance that you can hustle your way to biglaw there.


With that said start building a strong PI resume. If you don't get biglaw you will need it for PI jobs--volunteer experience, networking, and course selection can help a lot for PI. And if you do end up in a position to get biglaw it won't be too much trouble to explain away that sort of resume. However, the opposite is very rarely true.


Lol'd hard.


I Lol'd hard at this guy Lol'ing. To be fair, the Lol'er probably goes to a school that doesn't have a strong secondary market like Cornell or Georgetown where bottom 25% probably is preclusive of big law. HTH

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby magic05 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:48 pm

Bottom 3rd maybe 25% at MVP, Biglaw in secondary with no work experience.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby r6_philly » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Stay if you are fine with the possibility of being a lawyer who doesn't work biglaw. And quite frankly bottom quarter does not rule out biglaw. If you are from a secondary market, particularly one where your MVPB has a lot of cache (i.e the South for UVA, Milwaukee for Michigan, Philly for Penn etc.) there's a good chance that you can hustle your way to biglaw there.


With that said start building a strong PI resume. If you don't get biglaw you will need it for PI jobs--volunteer experience, networking, and course selection can help a lot for PI. And if you do end up in a position to get biglaw it won't be too much trouble to explain away that sort of resume. However, the opposite is very rarely true.


Lol'd hard.



0L's shouldn't comment on topics that they know nothing about. They tend to end up looking like fools--like you're about to.

I'm a 2L at one of the bolded who landed a secondary market biglaw job in the region where my MPVB has a lot of strength. Specifically one of the one's I named that you bolded. I have a substantially worse class rank than the OP. Again be careful about posting in employment forums with your limited knowledge. It's dangerous to people like the OP who need legitimate assistance.


OCI stats at Penn confirm this. Bottom 25% grades are workable with local firms.

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Re: 1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence?

Postby r6_philly » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:20 pm

johansantana21 wrote:Being bottom 25% at a lower T14 with connections to a secondary market does not equal "a good chance that you can hustle your way to biglaw there".

Secondary markets have plenty of schools that they can recruit from. They won't dip to bottom 25% of lower T14 just because of it's a T14.


They don't have to tell the clients what GPA the associate graduated with. T14's name is still a few steps above the rest in its own market.




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