lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

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Anonymous User
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lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:35 pm

1L here at lower T14 with 3 B+, 1 B, and 1 A-. Just wondering how screwed I would be for OCI if I get about the same grades in the spring semester. Would hard science/tech undergrad (with 1 year WE) help much?

09042014
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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:1L here at lower T14 with 3 B+, 1 B, and 1 A-. Just wondering how screwed I would be for OCI if I get about the same grades in the spring semester. Would hard science/tech undergrad (with 1 year WE) help much?


Median is an area where your grades aren't low enough to hurt you, but not high enough to get you the job itself. You'll have to bid well, interview decently but you'll probably get something. But you could also strike out.

I'd definitely try harder, figure out what you did wrong. Because going up one grade in each class, A, 3 A-, B, would put you in a good place for OCI.

What kind of tech undergrad? Biology BS? It might help. Chemistry? Maybe? Electrical engineering, Mechanical, CompSci? You'll mostly likely get multiple offers.

Definitely go to the Loyola Patent Fair. It'll help a lot in getting a job.

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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:1L here at lower T14 with 3 B+, 1 B, and 1 A-. Just wondering how screwed I would be for OCI if I get about the same grades in the spring semester. Would hard science/tech undergrad (with 1 year WE) help much?

Assuming your school officially curves to something like a B+, the actual curve for your class will probably end up .1 higher, meaning you'll be in the bottom 35-45% with a B+ GPA. At a place like Northwestern that will put you on the outer limits of an AmLaw 200 firms, at a place like Georgetown, you will be beyond the outer limits, but not completely hopeless if you are willing to be open about location/specialty. Hard science will only help if it makes you patent bar eligible and you are interested in patent prosecution or you nail an interview at Keller Heckman.

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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:51 pm

@ Desert Fox
Thanks a lot for the advice. I did engineering (best characterized as materials engineering I suppose). What kind of offers do you mean? Biglaw or mid-sized or small firms?
Of course I'd try harder, but I'm not sure how much it would help me when everyone else would try harder next semester.

@ LawIdiot86
I'm pretty sure I'm patent bar eligible but you're right, I know my chances are pretty awful...

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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:1L here at lower T14 with 3 B+, 1 B, and 1 A-. Just wondering how screwed I would be for OCI if I get about the same grades in the spring semester. Would hard science/tech undergrad (with 1 year WE) help much?


You are fine, especially with a tech background.

Non-tech here, bottom 30%, lower T14, 2+ biglaw offers last year. I know 3 others with similar grades who also got offers. You do need to be relatively good at interviews though.

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Pato_09
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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby Pato_09 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:54 pm

Not screwed at all. I know many friends at my lower Top-14 that are below median that had multiple offers.

Take a look at this book: http://www.amazon.com/Guerrilla-Tactics ... 0159003172.

Also, a good interviewee goes a long way. Mock interviews are great to separate from the pack.

1 year of WE will also help you, assuming it was in a business-type environment.

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IAFG
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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby IAFG » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:56 pm

Maybe you'll get a job, maybe you won't. Right now you can focus on doing better next semester to improve your odds. If we tell you you're fine or fucked we aren't really doing you any favors (and can't really be sure). Focus on what you can change.

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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:02 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:1L here at lower T14 with 3 B+, 1 B, and 1 A-. Just wondering how screwed I would be for OCI if I get about the same grades in the spring semester. Would hard science/tech undergrad (with 1 year WE) help much?

Assuming your school officially curves to something like a B+, the actual curve for your class will probably end up .1 higher, meaning you'll be in the bottom 35-45% with a B+ GPA. At a place like Northwestern that will put you on the outer limits of an AmLaw 200 firms, at a place like Georgetown, you will be beyond the outer limits, but not completely hopeless if you are willing to be open about location/specialty. Hard science will only help if it makes you patent bar eligible and you are interested in patent prosecution or you nail an interview at Keller Heckman.


There is almost nothing about this post that is accurate. If 70% of Northwestern (for example) are getting big law that doesn't mean only the top 70% get it. Being median (no way to firms sit there and try to figure out exactly how well you did), is enough to put you in the game for a lot of V100 firms.

Most big law firms who do patent law do patent litigation. And they have lower standards for recruiting people. I don't know how in demand MatSciEngineering is but if it is in demand, median is alright.

IAFG is right. There is a lot of variance between grades 1st and 2nd semester. Some people learn from their mistakes, others do worse. Don't worry about this shit.

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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:05 pm

yeah IAFG and Desert Fox... :(
just like a 1L waiting for decisions, can't help myself from making a "what are my chances" thread

09042014
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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:yeah IAFG and Desert Fox... :(
just like a 1L waiting for decisions, can't help myself from making a "what are my chances" thread


The answer is the better you do next semester the better your chances.

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cactuarX3
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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby cactuarX3 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:15 pm

Is it a common perception that pre-law school work experience helps with biglaw recruiting while in law school? (especially if the WE before law school was something like consulting/IB/audit at a firm)?

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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby englawyer » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:34 pm

cactuarX3 wrote:Is it a common perception that pre-law school work experience helps with biglaw recruiting while in law school? (especially if the WE before law school was something like consulting/IB/audit at a firm)?


absolutely. i would say its more than perception.

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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:42 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:1L here at lower T14 with 3 B+, 1 B, and 1 A-. Just wondering how screwed I would be for OCI if I get about the same grades in the spring semester. Would hard science/tech undergrad (with 1 year WE) help much?

Assuming your school officially curves to something like a B+, the actual curve for your class will probably end up .1 higher, meaning you'll be in the bottom 35-45% with a B+ GPA. At a place like Northwestern that will put you on the outer limits of an AmLaw 200 firms, at a place like Georgetown, you will be beyond the outer limits, but not completely hopeless if you are willing to be open about location/specialty. Hard science will only help if it makes you patent bar eligible and you are interested in patent prosecution or you nail an interview at Keller Heckman.


There is almost nothing about this post that is accurate. If 70% of Northwestern (for example) are getting big law that doesn't mean only the top 70% get it. Being median (no way to firms sit there and try to figure out exactly how well you did), is enough to put you in the game for a lot of V100 firms.

Most big law firms who do patent law do patent litigation. And they have lower standards for recruiting people. I don't know how in demand MatSciEngineering is but if it is in demand, median is alright.

IAFG is right. There is a lot of variance between grades 1st and 2nd semester. Some people learn from their mistakes, others do worse. Don't worry about this shit.


Assuming OP's T-14 is similar to mine, there are some hard numbers I can give him. Assuming he ends up .1 below the official median, our OCS releases the median GPA of 176 firm offices that interview on campus, of them 23 have a median at or below the GPA which is .1 below the official median. Of the remaining 300 firm offices that interview on campus, none of them have hired enough people to create reportable data. It is entirely possible to get hired below a firm's historical median; I got hired with a GPA .5 below the historical median, but it is a hell of a lot harder outside the top third and almost entirely dependent on interview skills and location preference. I suggest that OP spends his free time next summer (he'll be too busy in the spring getting his GPA up) networking at young lawyer/firm events and doing mock interviews with OCS/alums to give him the best chances.

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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby c3pO4 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:07 pm

Dude, with tech degree you are biglaw secure. Just make sure you practice interview a few times (but again, with WE your interview schools should be better than average already).

Below median at T 30 even can get biglaw with strong CS/EE background.

Don't stresss it! You can really outperform your gpa with solid IP background in most years, and right now, IP is absolutely booming. Aim for any of the boutiques or any V30-100

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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby johndhi » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:12 am

c3pO4 wrote:Dude, with tech degree you are biglaw secure. Just make sure you practice interview a few times (but again, with WE your interview schools should be better than average already).

Below median at T 30 even can get biglaw with strong CS/EE background.

Don't stresss it! You can really outperform your gpa with solid IP background in most years, and right now, IP is absolutely booming. Aim for any of the boutiques or any V30-100


wait a second, are you speaking from experience or the old rationalizing the fact that you didn't get a job but your IP friends did? the fact that you say "any of the boutiques" in the context of biglaw hiring leads me to suspect you.

do more practice tests next semester, OP, and read up about doing good interviewing. good luck.

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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby c3pO4 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:17 am

johndhi wrote:
c3pO4 wrote:Dude, with tech degree you are biglaw secure. Just make sure you practice interview a few times (but again, with WE your interview schools should be better than average already).

Below median at T 30 even can get biglaw with strong CS/EE background.

Don't stresss it! You can really outperform your gpa with solid IP background in most years, and right now, IP is absolutely booming. Aim for any of the boutiques or any V30-100


wait a second, are you speaking from experience or the old rationalizing the fact that you didn't get a job but your IP friends did? the fact that you say "any of the boutiques" in the context of biglaw hiring leads me to suspect you.

do more practice tests next semester, OP, and read up about doing good interviewing. good luck.


i wonder why this guy opens with "are you rationalizing not getting a job" when he has no idea what he's talking about... OP doesn' tneed to "do more practice tests." oP will get a biglaw job.

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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby thesealocust » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:06 am

c3pO4 wrote:i wonder why this guy opens with "are you rationalizing not getting a job" when he has no idea what he's talking about... OP doesn' tneed to "do more practice tests." oP will get a biglaw job.


Terrible and incorrect advice. Obviously more practice tests will help, and OP is far from guaranteed to get a biglaw job.

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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby Grizz » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:13 am

IAFG wrote:Maybe you'll get a job, maybe you won't.

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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby c3pO4 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:15 am

OP come back next year and let us know how it went. I can't wait to say I tol' ya so when this guy is working at WSGR.

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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby Unitas » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:45 am

Make sure you sign up and go to the loyola job fair or whatever the patent job fair in chicago is.

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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby nsbane » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:03 am

Retake the LSAT and apply to law school next cycle.

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sky7
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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby sky7 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:24 pm

Sit for the patent bar. You will be fine.

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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:32 pm

sky7 wrote:Sit for the patent bar. You will be fine.


but I'd have to get something from OCI before patent bar, no?

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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby c3pO4 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:07 pm

Unitas wrote:Make sure you sign up and go to the loyola job fair or whatever the patent job fair in chicago is.


+1. If you don't do this you might be screwed. Seriously. You WILL get offers from loyola IP fair.

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Re: lower T14 grades around median, how screwed?

Postby thesealocust » Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:10 pm

c3pO4 wrote:Seriously. You WILL get offers from loyola IP fair.


Stop. This isn't true. Nothing is certain and you're not helping. Even if OP is likely to get a job, it's destructive for lurkers reading & for the OP to tell him/her that they *will* get a job.




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