accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

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thesealocust
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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby thesealocust » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:36 pm

CHRISTMAS IS BACK ON

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MrKappus
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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby MrKappus » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:37 pm

thesealocust wrote:CHRISTMAS IS BACK ON


lol. you kill me, anonymous internet personality I don't know.

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sundance95
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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby sundance95 » Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:47 am

monkey85 wrote:
ggocat wrote:Tell firm A to screw off. That's what they would do to you if they ran into budget problems.

+1. You don't owe anything to any firm. Cut Firm A without any regrets.

This. Why do people seem to think that there is a problem with selling one's services for a higher price? I thought we were capitalists? Yeah, Firm A will be pissed, but if he's really going to make 33% more at Firm B, that's how the cookie crumbles.

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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:43 am

OP here. Thanks for all the responses.

My viewpoint aligns with what seems to be the majority trend in this thread. I agree that the smarter move would have been to bring Firm A's offer to Firm B and try to leverage something at that point. In my view, though, the fact is that the terms of employment are substantially higher, and at-will employment works both ways. There's no shortage of jobless 3Ls for Firm A to hire at this point.

I guess my main concern is how to cut ties with Firm A without losing out on Firm B- touchy situation...

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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:46 am

Tree wrote:This is tough. But, obviously you can't take both. How long has it been since you accepted each offer? Was Firm A's offer considerably earlier than Firm B's?

Why did you not push Firm B over the summer to let you know ASAP whether they would be extending offers? If you did, did they just decide to drag their feet?

Regardless, you must pick one, and the sooner the better. The more time that you wait, the more damage there will be.



Honestly I didn't push it because Firm B has only a handful of associates- literally almost 10x more partners than associates- and the vast majority of the few associates were hired as laterals. I thought the chances of landing a position with them were so slim that I was better off making money during the semester and potentially getting referrals than pressing the issue on permanent employment.

Firm A's offer was in late October, IIRC. Firm B's offer was in the last 7 days.

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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:48 am

I hope to be in a similar situation soon. I was an SA at a firm and got an offer from the firm and to clerk. Deferred at the firm but signed paperwork like I'd be back. I'm applying to other firms like crazy and if I land a job at a substantially better firm, I'm going. I think it'll be burning a bridge at the one firm, but I doubt there will be any other repurcushions. In fact, other firms in the market are showing the most interest.

Also -- attorneys lateral from one firm in the market to another firm in the market all the time. Sometimes in their first year. What is the difference between backing out of the first acceptance and going to another firm before you start work? I'm sure that in light of the fact that tons of smart people from my graduating class are employed at POS insurance defense or PI firms (or unemployed) the midlaw firm could easily pick up a replacement.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:52 am

.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby JamMasterJ » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:54 am

thesealocust wrote:CHRISTMAS IS BACK ON

came to the forum I'm not supposed to be in to say you are the KING

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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:54 am

What could they do to torpedo you? Like C&F stuff?

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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:01 am

Anonymous User wrote:I hope to be in a similar situation soon. I was an SA at a firm and got an offer from the firm and to clerk. Deferred at the firm but signed paperwork like I'd be back. I'm applying to other firms like crazy and if I land a job at a substantially better firm, I'm going. I think it'll be burning a bridge at the one firm, but I doubt there will be any other repurcushions. In fact, other firms in the market are showing the most interest.

Also -- attorneys lateral from one firm in the market to another firm in the market all the time. Sometimes in their first year. What is the difference between backing out of the first acceptance and going to another firm before you start work? I'm sure that in light of the fact that tons of smart people from my graduating class are employed at POS insurance defense or PI firms (or unemployed) the midlaw firm could easily pick up a replacement.


I'll assume you purposely misspelled "repercussions"..

So you have a full offer at a firm that you accepted, an offer to clerk (for a judge I'm guessing) that I assume you accepted, and you are now actively seeking out other offers "like crazy"? You are being utterly dishonest to the firm you accepted employment at. There might be some situations that justify rescinding an acceptance (OP's situation is borderline), but what you are doing is seriously unprofessional.

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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
I'll assume you purposely misspelled "repercussions"..

So you have a full offer at a firm that you accepted, an offer to clerk (for a judge I'm guessing) that I assume you accepted, and you are now actively seeking out other offers "like crazy"? You are being utterly dishonest to the firm you accepted employment at. There might be some situations that justify rescinding an acceptance (OP's situation is borderline), but what you are doing is seriously unprofessional.


I don't spell check my anonymous internet postings. Yes. I clerk for a fed. coa judge. I also don't think I'm acting unprofessionally. The firm would dump me in a minute. In fact, they just no-offered their entire summer class (the one after mine) for ecoomy-based reasons.

Also, the firm offered at the end of my summer there. At that time I knew I would have much better opportunities because I had already accepted the COA clerkship, but I didn't have anything in hand. I accepted to be safe, but I see no reason to limit my opportunities to the firm I mistakenly chose as a 2L. My job is to look out for me. The firm can easily look out for itself (like it did when it no-offered perfectly good summer associates a few months ago).

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leobowski
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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby leobowski » Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:48 am

In all seriousness, have you considered masturbating near a nuclear reactor, enslaving your radioactive offspring clones, collecting both salaries, and using the proceeds to build a mid-sized spaceship fleet or some kind of intergalactic laser death ray? You need to think long-term dude.

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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:43 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
I'll assume you purposely misspelled "repercussions"..

So you have a full offer at a firm that you accepted, an offer to clerk (for a judge I'm guessing) that I assume you accepted, and you are now actively seeking out other offers "like crazy"? You are being utterly dishonest to the firm you accepted employment at. There might be some situations that justify rescinding an acceptance (OP's situation is borderline), but what you are doing is seriously unprofessional.


I don't spell check my anonymous internet postings. Yes. I clerk for a fed. coa judge. I also don't think I'm acting unprofessionally. The firm would dump me in a minute. In fact, they just no-offered their entire summer class (the one after mine) for ecoomy-based reasons.

Also, the firm offered at the end of my summer there. At that time I knew I would have much better opportunities because I had already accepted the COA clerkship, but I didn't have anything in hand. I accepted to be safe, but I see no reason to limit my opportunities to the firm I mistakenly chose as a 2L. My job is to look out for me. The firm can easily look out for itself (like it did when it no-offered perfectly good summer associates a few months ago).


So you wouldn't think your summer firm did anything wrong if they rescinded your offer because they found someone better?

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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
I'll assume you purposely misspelled "repercussions"..

So you have a full offer at a firm that you accepted, an offer to clerk (for a judge I'm guessing) that I assume you accepted, and you are now actively seeking out other offers "like crazy"? You are being utterly dishonest to the firm you accepted employment at. There might be some situations that justify rescinding an acceptance (OP's situation is borderline), but what you are doing is seriously unprofessional.


I don't spell check my anonymous internet postings. Yes. I clerk for a fed. coa judge. I also don't think I'm acting unprofessionally. The firm would dump me in a minute. In fact, they just no-offered their entire summer class (the one after mine) for ecoomy-based reasons.

Also, the firm offered at the end of my summer there. At that time I knew I would have much better opportunities because I had already accepted the COA clerkship, but I didn't have anything in hand. I accepted to be safe, but I see no reason to limit my opportunities to the firm I mistakenly chose as a 2L. My job is to look out for me. The firm can easily look out for itself (like it did when it no-offered perfectly good summer associates a few months ago).


So you wouldn't think your summer firm did anything wrong if they rescinded your offer because they found someone better?

I agree that anon clerk is acting unprofessional in continuing to look after taking an offer. But, there is something strange with professional culture on a whole in this regard. It's unprofessional for firm X to rescind because they find someone better, but it's considered fine to fire him anytime in the first year. Same as it's wrong to keep looking after you take an offer, but it's fine if on your second day working there, you call a headhunter and tell him to start finding you somewhere else to work. Like it isn't socially acceptable to be disloyal/traitor until you're actually working there.

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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So you wouldn't think your summer firm did anything wrong if they rescinded your offer because they found someone better?


The deal is that I think they would have no problems with doing exactly that. From posts on this board it sounds like NYC biglaw sees it as a black eye to lay off first years or to no-offer good summers or to rescind offers. Regional midlaw firms -- at least the ones I'm familiar with -- don't have the same qualms. They care about the bottom line and know there's tons of qualified attorneys that would love to leave their shit-law shops and come on board. The firm I was at no-offered their summers and hundreds of kids eagerly signed up to do OCI with them. They also laid off people I worked closely with and expect me to be excited to come back.

If I thought the midlaw firm I was at had any loyalty to me, I'd be loyal to them. I don't think they do, and I have a mortgage to pay, so I'm going to look out for me. I really do appreciate the opinions offered here, but I think in my scenario I'm doing the right thing. Also, if my choices cause the firm problems, maybe they'll think twice before they lay off good junior attorneys in the future.

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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby ben4847 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:17 pm

I feel like it is a bit different because it is permanent employment instead of an SA which is for a specific fixed term.

If you got a better offer after a week at your permanent employment, wouldn't you quit and take it? And would anyone be mad at you?
So why is it different just because he hasn't started?

OP: Take the better offer, and inform Firm A politely and decidedly.

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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby JusticeJackson » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:14 pm

.
Last edited by JusticeJackson on Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:53 pm

OP here. Thanks again for all the advice. I figure I'll make the call on Monday, and hopefully everything works out. A couple things I want to address though.

First off, my situation isn't at all like that of the CoA clerk that has also posted here. I never affirmatively went on the hunt for additional offers, this one basically fell into my lap. That's a different situation altogether.

Second, people compare this to a firm just rescinding your offer in favor of someone else. But the impact is completely different. Me not working for this firm is certainly inconvenient for them, but there is no shortage of jobless 3Ls who may not have the same credentials that I do, but will be pretty much fungible. From the employee standpoint, however, the impact of losing your job is much greater.


Interestingly, it does seem like the recession, and the actions taken by many firms therein, have changed firm-associate labor relations pretty substantially.

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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Thanks again for all the advice. I figure I'll make the call on Monday, and hopefully everything works out. A couple things I want to address though.

First off, my situation isn't at all like that of the CoA clerk that has also posted here. I never affirmatively went on the hunt for additional offers, this one basically fell into my lap. That's a different situation altogether.

Second, people compare this to a firm just rescinding your offer in favor of someone else. But the impact is completely different. Me not working for this firm is certainly inconvenient for them, but there is no shortage of jobless 3Ls who may not have the same credentials that I do, but will be pretty much fungible. From the employee standpoint, however, the impact of losing your job is much greater.


Interestingly, it does seem like the recession, and the actions taken by many firms therein, have changed firm-associate labor relations pretty substantially.


I'm the poster that made the original comparison in your second point.

I agreed that your situation is different and that you should probably rescind, but as I said, you're a borderline case. You seem to agree with this as well, otherwise you wouldn't feel as bad as you do about rescinding.

I think your second point misinterpreted my argument, which is simply that the inconvenience to a firm of someone rescinding their acceptance--as well as the ethical offensiveness of breaking your word to them--is something that should weigh against any decision to do so. The COA clerk was saying basically that rescinding is a right for the offeree-attorney, and that no weight should be given to the fact that you made a deal for employment. However, as both you and I pointed out, most people would be aghast if a firm took this approach and rescinded offers simply because better candidates came along because of the serious economic impact it would have on the guy that just got his offer rescinded. Thus, if people expect a firm to weigh the impact of a rescission on the law student/attorney, the law student/attorney should similarly be obligated to weigh the impact of a rescission on the firm. Because of the disproportionate impact of a law firm rescinding v. the law student rescinding, there are likely more scenarios where a law student rescinding would be justified, but my main point is that I disagree with the free-for-all, no-obligation rescissions that the COA clerk is advocating.

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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby sundance95 » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:51 pm

Would love to hear an update if OP feels comfortable.


Master Tofu
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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby Master Tofu » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:33 am

Anonymous User wrote:
I think your second point misinterpreted my argument, which is simply that the inconvenience to a firm of someone rescinding their acceptance--as well as the ethical offensiveness of breaking your word to them--is something that should weigh against any decision to do so. The COA clerk was saying basically that rescinding is a right for the offeree-attorney, and that no weight should be given to the fact that you made a deal for employment. However, as both you and I pointed out, most people would be aghast if a firm took this approach and rescinded offers simply because better candidates came along because of the serious economic impact it would have on the guy that just got his offer rescinded. Thus, if people expect a firm to weigh the impact of a rescission on the law student/attorney, the law student/attorney should similarly be obligated to weigh the impact of a rescission on the firm. Because of the disproportionate impact of a law firm rescinding v. the law student rescinding, there are likely more scenarios where a law student rescinding would be justified, but my main point is that I disagree with the free-for-all, no-obligation rescissions that the COA clerk is advocating.


Your moral posturing is ethically offensive to me. Please refrain. People are trying to make a tough life decision and you regurgitating something you heard in your social philosophy class is not helpful.

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MrKappus
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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby MrKappus » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:38 am

Master Tofu wrote:Your moral posturing is ethically offensive to me. Please refrain. People are trying to make a tough life decision and you regurgitating something you heard in your social philosophy class is not helpful.


You've incorrectly framed this as a navel-gazing debate about ethics. There are practical, real-life consequences to acting without regard for your reputation, and the legal world can be a pretty small one. This is particularly true in small- and medium-sized markets, where alienating an entire firm isn't something one should take lightly.

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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:53 am

Master Tofu wrote:
Your moral posturing is ethically offensive to me. Please refrain. People are trying to make a tough life decision and you regurgitating something you heard in your social philosophy class is not helpful.


Yes, how dare I suggest that someone act with integrity! Life decisions should never be made with such a consideration.

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Re: accepted offers from 2 firms- what to do?

Postby snowpeach06 » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:56 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'm an idiot. I'm a 3L and I accepted an offer from a firm at 3LOL OCI (Firm A). I had been working as a law clerk over the summer and through the fall semester at a different firm (Firm B) that almost never hires its law clerks for post-grad. Because of that, I had no qualms about accepting at Firm A. Now Firm B offered me a job as an associate on considerably better terms, which I quickly accepted because I was so excited. Firm B pays over 1/3 more, has more interesting practices, is in a more convenient location (5 minute commute vs. 40), and I already know the people there.

How can I best manage this situation? I feel like I should call them and just lay out the pro's and con's I just mentioned, and try to sound genuinely apologetic. Any advice?

I retardedly did this last year for a 1L summer job. I mean, it's going to look bad, but all you can do is call and and tell job A you have changed your mind. The worst they can do is tell some other employers you suck, but, you already have a job - at a firm that clearly knows you and likes you. so, you'll be fine. Do tell them as soon as possible though so they can find someone new. Call and say something vague like "my circumstances have changed, and I won't be able to work for your anymore."




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