Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

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c3pO4
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby c3pO4 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here

Thanks for the feedback everyone... it's hard to know the extent and accuracy of the advice in here.

I want to be optomistic, but post like button's are quite accurate as well.

As far as the home market issue, look... Not everyone is fortunate enough to be born in a good place and have the ability to move around easily. When I say that my home market is a living breathing hell hole, I really do mean it. I'm sure that you would agree if placed in the same situation and area: it's in a similar boat as Memphis, St. Louis, and other horrendous southern southern urban areas.


i was born in a motherfucking communist country that killed tons of my family. go back to your home market, if you want a job. otherwise, you are screwed.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:29 pm

c3pO4 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here

Thanks for the feedback everyone... it's hard to know the extent and accuracy of the advice in here.

I want to be optomistic, but post like button's are quite accurate as well.

As far as the home market issue, look... Not everyone is fortunate enough to be born in a good place and have the ability to move around easily. When I say that my home market is a living breathing hell hole, I really do mean it. I'm sure that you would agree if placed in the same situation and area: it's in a similar boat as Memphis, St. Louis, and other horrendous southern southern urban areas.


i was born in a motherfucking communist country that killed tons of my family. go back to your home market, if you want a job. otherwise, you are screwed.

Um, St. Louis isn't even that bad... If you were arguing Detroit, Gary, Buffalo, etc, maybe I would agree that those entire regions are so bad that it isn't worth it, but if you could get into St. Louis, Memphis, Birmingham-type cities, just live in the suburbs and commute to work.

Anonymous User
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:29 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:
c3pO4 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here

Thanks for the feedback everyone... it's hard to know the extent and accuracy of the advice in here.

I want to be optomistic, but post like button's are quite accurate as well.

As far as the home market issue, look... Not everyone is fortunate enough to be born in a good place and have the ability to move around easily. When I say that my home market is a living breathing hell hole, I really do mean it. I'm sure that you would agree if placed in the same situation and area: it's in a similar boat as Memphis, St. Louis, and other horrendous southern southern urban areas.


i was born in a motherfucking communist country that killed tons of my family. go back to your home market, if you want a job. otherwise, you are screwed.

Um, St. Louis isn't even that bad... If you were arguing Detroit, Gary, Buffalo, etc, maybe I would agree that those entire regions are so bad that it isn't worth it, but if you could get into St. Louis, Memphis, Birmingham-type cities, just live in the suburbs and commute to work.



Returning to my home market is not an option for a number of valid, reasonable, personal reasons. I don't care what you think on this issue. This isn't feaudal Europe; people are not bound to the land where they were born. Furthermore, home markets do not matter when: (1) you have no professional connections to the market; (2) you dislike the market for valid reasons that are supported and widely acknowledged by the general population; (3) the market is widely acknowledged as a seething cess pit; (4) you do not share political/religious/moral/cultural values with 80% of its inhabitants.

Again, I apprecaite advice, but honestly, if you're just going to troll about the home market, go post on another thread.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

proverbs120
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby proverbs120 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:39 pm

ITT: another TLS anoni-poster comes asking for advice and gets mad when people give him advice he doesn't like.

Seriously, you asked "Career dead in a ditch?" That makes it seems like you think prospects are pretty bad. You should expect that people will want you to explain, in a reasonable way, what makes a move back to your home market such a non-starter, when it's almost certainly your best bet at meaningful legal employment.

The reasons you listed above, for example, do not seem dispositive. The home market advantage is not really, or at least not in my experience, about professional connections. It's about establishing that you're from the area and care to live there. And the rest of the things you say are generalizations--that doesn't mean there aren't pockets of a city or its suburbs that won't suit you.

Additionally, while you're not abusing the anonymous feature, it's unclear why you won't just tell us the city. Do you think you're the only 3L from New Orleans/Little Rock/Bumblefuck that doesn't have a job? You think the small firms that are still hiring dedicate time to screening applicants' TLS history?

lolwat
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby lolwat » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:44 pm

The problem is that the people "trolling" about your home market are very likely right. Regardless of any of those factors you mentioned, you have a higher chance of landing something in your home market than anywhere else. Sure, you might have a perfectly valid reason to leave and never look back; just know that you're also throwing away your best chance of getting a job. I honestly can't think of a single place in the US where I couldn't at least commute to if it meant having a job on graduation. I might leave after a year or two, but at least I would've had a job when it matters the most.

Anyway, your career might not be completely dead in a ditch, but it's going to take a lot of work and some luck to get it on track. You're still in school. Talk to career services (as unhelpful as some CSOs are, many can at least point you in the right direction). Talk to your profs, especially onces you did well in or have made some connection with; they usually have friends in practice. Talk to the people you did internships with before; same idea. You wouldn't go to a random alum or someone you're networking with and ask them for a job, but the above mentioned are ones that you can actually be a little more direct in saying something like "I don't have anything lined up yet, do you have any suggestions?"

You can still get a clerkship via applying as an alum, but it will be a year out from now and you'll have a year gap on your resume that you need to fill with something or another. It's up to you whether that option is worth it. I don't know enough people that have been in that situation (or currently are, besides myself) to know whether everything works out in the end if you do that.

Anonymous User
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:46 pm

proverbs120 wrote:ITT: another TLS anoni-poster comes asking for advice and gets mad when people give him advice he doesn't like.

Seriously, you asked "Career dead in a ditch?" That makes it seems like you think prospects are pretty bad. You should expect that people will want you to explain, in a reasonable way, what makes a move back to your home market such a non-starter, when it's almost certainly your best bet at meaningful legal employment.

The reasons you listed above, for example, do not seem dispositive. The home market advantage is not really, or at least not in my experience, about professional connections. It's about establishing that you're from the area and care to live there. And the rest of the things you say are generalizations--that doesn't mean there aren't pockets of a city or its suburbs that won't suit you.

Additionally, while you're not abusing the anonymous feature, it's unclear why you won't just tell us the city. Do you think you're the only 3L from New Orleans/Little Rock/Bumblefuck that doesn't have a job? You think the small firms that are still hiring dedicate time to screening applicants' TLS history?


I'd really appreciate if this thread was about rendering advice about the questions directed and not aimed at my decision to never return to my home market. Again, it's a decision that I thought about for years, hold valid personal reasons, and is not relevant.

Otherwise, I appreciate the advice posted thus far and welcome as much advice as people are willing to give.

c3pO4
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby c3pO4 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
proverbs120 wrote:ITT: another TLS anoni-poster comes asking for advice and gets mad when people give him advice he doesn't like.

Seriously, you asked "Career dead in a ditch?" That makes it seems like you think prospects are pretty bad. You should expect that people will want you to explain, in a reasonable way, what makes a move back to your home market such a non-starter, when it's almost certainly your best bet at meaningful legal employment.

The reasons you listed above, for example, do not seem dispositive. The home market advantage is not really, or at least not in my experience, about professional connections. It's about establishing that you're from the area and care to live there. And the rest of the things you say are generalizations--that doesn't mean there aren't pockets of a city or its suburbs that won't suit you.

Additionally, while you're not abusing the anonymous feature, it's unclear why you won't just tell us the city. Do you think you're the only 3L from New Orleans/Little Rock/Bumblefuck that doesn't have a job? You think the small firms that are still hiring dedicate time to screening applicants' TLS history?


I'd really appreciate if this thread was about rendering advice about the questions directed and not aimed at my decision to never return to my home market. Again, it's a decision that I thought about for years, hold valid personal reasons, and is not relevant.

Otherwise, I appreciate the advice posted thus far and welcome as much advice as people are willing to give.


You just want people to tell you what you want to hear? That's not called advice buddy.

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Campagnolo
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby Campagnolo » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Summary:

It appears I've reached the proverbial end of the road and the boat that is a position that offers career mobility has already departed the dock. This situation has destroyed my mental health and ability to function without anxiety and constant fear. Seriously, I feel like an absolute wreck right now over this and am quite lost.

Summary of my situation:

(1) I'm in the top 10% at a school ranked about # 50, on a respected secondary journal, and published in that secondary journal. I transferred to my # 50 school (region where I want to practice but have never lived since last year) from a # 65 school (region where I grew up but never, ever, want to live and practice in). My current school specializes in the field of law that I am most interested in.

PM me.
(2) I have two fairly prestigious government internships (one for a federal agency; one for a state agency). Very strong references from the internships.

(3) I will have clinical experience(s) this Spring.

(4) Undergrad degree in English from a generic state school; first-gen college grad; not a URM; no legal connections; horrible at networking and schmoozing; no connections outside my home state (but I never, ever, want to practice in that state or part of the country); $110,000 in debt. I'd like to practice in the Northwest ideally.

(5) Most desired employment: (i) government positions in civil litigation (torts, env. law, civil rights, etc.); (ii) clerkships that will extend my eligibility for government positions; (iii) big law firms that provide career mobility. Less desired employment: (iv) DA/PD positions; (v) mid-sized law firms; (vi) small law firms; (vii) public interest law; (viii) non-legal positions; (ix) contract attorney positions.

I want a "most desired employment" position and dread the "less desired employment positions." I am aware of the fact that if I take a "less desired employment position" I will likely be precluded from all other forms of desired employment.

(6) Three OCI big firm call backs but no offers (good feedback though). Two Article III interviews but no offers (again good feedback). Two government honors callbacks but no offers (again, great feedback). For each position, I was told that I "almost made the selection and was a very strong candidate, but [insert hard economic times boilerplate]."

Options at this point:

(I) I realize that big firms, government, fellowships, and judges are done hiring. However, can I still find a magistrate judge somewhere or has that boat passed too? Similarly, state supreme/appellate judges in the state where my school is located (and shitty home state) typically hire in the 2nd year, but it is not impossible (in theory) to apply this Spring. Do I have a realistic chance at getting a magistrate or state supreme/appellate clerkship at this point?

(II) Should I consider doing an LLM to toll eligibility for government positions? It would be in env. law (probably - terrible at tax and no background) and cost about $60,000 total (making total student loan 110k + 60k = 170K).

(III) ...I accept the fact that no matter how hard I tried, incredible references, and a solid resume, that the boat that is big law/gvt/cleckships has passed, and I'm essentially confined to a legal position that does not offer career mobility at this point. Furthermore, I'm new to the region where my school sits, have virtually NO connections in the area, and absolutely suck at (and dread) networking. Finding a "shitlaw" position will prove difficult, regardless.

(III) Do you have any advice for my situation? Again, I've read this forum like a hawk for weeks and know most of the major pointers.

I kindly ask that you do not troll for lulz and will ignore such comments; my mental health is shitty enough as it is, =/.


PM me.

zomginternets
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby zomginternets » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I disagree. I think buttonpusher makes some valid points that must be considered. You claim that 75% of people don't get jobs from OCI, well i agree with that. The OP is not depending on OCI he/she is going out there and getting interviews. T25s rarely have 3L opportunities. I doubt the Op's school would have 3L opportunities. You have to look at the quality of the jobs that they get. You claim they get jobs, but what kind of jobs are they getting? Also, how many people don't have jobs at your school? people that dont have jobs aren't going to go around saying they don't have jobs so you might just be hanging around the vocal minority.

You can't compare the past ie 2007 and now. The legal field has changed a lot over the past 5 years. I think the truth of the matter lies somewhere inbetween buttonpusher and the poster above's comments.


The 3L opportunities exist for people who go out and find them--they're just no longer dropped in your lap like OCI does. As long as he is in a reasonably sized market that's not saturated with T14s, I don't think he's in a dire position. He has 1 year (between now and passing the bar or a month or two after) to network (most useful) and mass mail (not that useful). The point of my post was that just because the OCI/biglaw boat has sailed, doesn't mean that his legal career is "dead in a ditch." His numbers prove that he will be a good lawyer, he just needs to find an "in", and 1+ years is enough to find that in either through networking or (possibly) mass mailing. I concede that while market saturation and recession have both impeded the legal market, posts like buttonpusher's is ridiculous. It's much better for the OP to be optimistic (but realistic) than to have the "all is doomed" mentality right now.

msuz
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby msuz » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:14 pm

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Last edited by msuz on Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

c3pO4
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby c3pO4 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:19 pm

msuz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:...Never. I won't go into personal history, but just understand, my home market is widely considered one of the -worst- urban environments in the U.S. More bad memories from that place than anything combined (victim of multiple crimes; horrible education; etc). Any reasonable person would hate that place with a fury and escape at first chance. It's the feature of most "let's get out of the hood" movies.

Anonymous User wrote:It's among those cities. But I can assure you, any reasonable person would want to get the living hell out of such a place - it truly is a miserable seething shithole.

Anonymous User wrote:As far as the home market issue, look... Not everyone is fortunate enough to be born in a good place and have the ability to move around easily. When I say that my home market is a living breathing hell hole, I really do mean it.

I havent heard anyone talk this way about any other city than Detroit


have you seen the houses you can buy for under 200k in detroit??????? like fracking mansions. living there as a lawyer making 60-70k would be fan fucking tastic. you ever hear jahvid best, matt stafford, or megatron complaining about how they hate where they live???

after 5 years when you make 100k you will be strait cruisin. people in large markets would kill for a COL like detroits. it's not an unliveable city.

msuz
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby msuz » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:21 pm

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ahnhub
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby ahnhub » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:36 pm

Yes, Biglaw might have sailed, but to think that's the only type of private practice worth doing is beyond dumb. There are different paths.

My cousin graduated from a T-14 almost at the BOTTOM OF HIS CLASS. He didn't get a single callback at OCI, so you're ahead of him there. He moved to LA, took the bar on his own dime, and spent three months crashing with different friends before landing a non-prestigious state clerking gig (the kind of thing you would be eminently more qualified for, considering how horrible my cousin's grades were and the fact he had no journal/EC to speak of). He worked there two years, and landed a job with a firm that does the type of work Biglaw does--litigation for big farming conglomerates. They bill $200/hr for his services, so I'm guessing with his clerking experience he makes 85-100K. This kind of stuff happens all the time. You can land that kind of job after doing PI/state clerkship/small firm. Once you have some experience the game totally changes.

And I don't think federal gov't is out of the picture long-term. Only a handful of federal lawyers started entry-level. The rest all gained litigation experience in some other way.

Nothing is guaranteed, and the market is saturated. But you made top 10%, so you obviously have both aptitude and drive. And you must have known there was a really, really good chance of striking out at OCI from a T50 when you went, right? I mean, Harvard students strike out at OCI (and not just when the market is bad).
Last edited by ahnhub on Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:37 pm

If you want your options, for law, you're going to find a job in a small/solo firm either in your law school's market or in a secondary market in a state where you take the bar (think Columbus, not Cleveland; Springfield, not Chicago; Albany, not NYC). You will have to network your ass off in that city and build ties quickly by joining the county bar, Rotary/Lions/Elks, going to the local minor league sports team. Or you can go non-legal and get a job as a program assistant for a government agency (maybe the one you interned at). Legal in a government agency, even at a state level, sounds unlikely at this point unless it is one of those state agencies generally immune to budget issues (like the PUC).

Outside of accidentally saving the life of the governor, I would rule out your "most desired employment" choices and try to pick a "less desired employment position" that is at least related to your interests (non-legal at an agency doing your field) or provides an exit option you can hope for (small law firm in a city with biglaw firms you can network into).

Also, referring to your law school as specialized and the reference to environmental and tax led me to crosstab from the ABA website (didn't look at the USN rank) and it's probably among Florida, Denver or Houston. Florida and Texas are not bad markets to work up from a small firm, and yes, Denver is dead now, so if that is your school, you really will need to network your ass off in another place where you take the bar.

keg411
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby keg411 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:21 pm

State trial clerkships (not appellate, not supreme). Apply to every single judge in every single state in every single market you would be willing to go to. Mention in your cover letters why you want to be in that particular market/work in that particular court. Apply to the Criminal, Civil, Probate/Chancery/Equity (or whatever your state's equivalent is) and Family divisions. It's a really really good way to make connections for small-midsized firm and local gov't type jobs. Look especially for judges that went to your current law school or your undergrad and send those applications out TOMORROW.

And apply now (like, get off TLS and start putting together a list) because your time may already be up on a lot of these.

Anonymous User
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:46 pm

it's probably among Florida, Denver or Houston. Florida and Texas are not bad markets to work up from a small firm, and yes, Denver is dead now


DU is like the mid 70s, so I wouldn't think OP would represent it as "about 50" even stretching things a bit.

But you are correct. The Denver legal market is tooooough. The big problem is that once you take into account the tip top (like top 10-15) students at CU and DU, the clerks coming off of 10th Circuit and D. Colo. clerkships, the 2-4 year associates at national firms who want to move to their firms' Denver offices, and the random T14 (again, really T6) people from the area who want to move back, that's pretty much every last biglaw associate (even for Denver) spot available.

We moved to Denver pre-ITE for my wife's career, when I was a 5th year associate at a V20 firm with a surprising amount of experience (like a dozen or so deps, second chair trial experience, several upteenth chair trials, etc.) and good grades from CCN. I didn't even get a sniff from the big firms. I was lucky to get midlaw for about half of what I was making before. (Oh, and the work here kind of sucks at that level -- I was basically getting the cases that the big Denver firms didn't want, which in turn was the scraps from what the big national firms didn't want).

buttonpusher
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby buttonpusher » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:14 pm

OP,

Believe me, I know full well how badly it sucks to be in the position you're in, and I'm not trolling you. I'm sympathetic, but also brutally honest, and I think you realize just how dire your personal situation is, which is a good start.

I also had 6 digit debt upon graduation (about 100 K), and missed the OCI/Biglaw boat by inches at a school ranked similar to yours. I also did an honors internship with a government agency both 2 L and 3 L year, and won "Best Brief" in my school's moot court contest.

Like you, I believed that somehow the "karma" of all this hard work would pay off somehow down the road, even though I missed Biglaw/OCI. It seemed hard to swallow that there would be no "career" to speak of given that I did well in law school and basically "did everything right." I had nearly a 4.0 in undergrad and won several writing/journalism competitions there, and was certain that firms would see this (along with my moot court win) and at least value my writing ability.

They didn't. I mass mailed over 600 resumes, got nothing but a handful of "no thanks" form letters in reply, networked very hard (I was a realtor prior to law school and had a lot of contacts in that industry, and hoped to do land use/environmental just like you).

Problem is that the Biglaw type land use/environmental firms want Top 14'ers or OCI superstars from TTT's, like the #1 or #2 person in the class. The others who land Biglaw from TTT's often had family connections or other assets (smoking hot girl, dad is a Federal judge, etc).

Once you fail to get Biglaw via OCI, it's over. You are not going to be an associate at any biglaw shop barring a miracle. And as we all know, thanks to the severity of bi-modal salary distribution, it's almost always either 160 K or like 35-45 K at shitlaw, unless you land a decent government gig at say 55-65 K, which is a non-issue now due to mass hiring freezes in the states & w/ Uncle Sam.

The mid-sized firms who do quality work in niche, non-shitlaw practice areas rarely recruit or hire recent grads. They prefer either ex-Biglaw laterals looking for better quality of life, people with a few years at a government agency, etc. A book of business or family/personal connections to get a book of business is also a huge plus. They don't have the time or inclination to train even very bright people with excellent law school grades, because doing well in law school and knowing how to practice law without constant supervision and questions are two very, very different things.

I found all this out the hard way. Eventually I broke down and just started replying to ads on lawjobs, craigslist etc as my loans were bearing down and I had to take anything I could get. I decided to try applying to low-end landlord-tenant eviction type firms just to get SOME real estate related experience. On one interview I landed, I asked the partner if they ever did any work on things like zoning/compliance, commercial deals, condemnation/takings, etc. He looked at me like I was insane and said "why do you ask that- do you think you're too good to do this garbage?" Just a total a-hole. He said the salary was 40 K non-negotiable and take it or leave it. He also straight up told me I was currently worthless to the firm as I had no courtroom experience and didn't know the ropes, etc.

Be advised that most shitlaw offers/interviews will proceed very much in this fashion. They'll bring in like 20 people, march them into a crappy conference room, tell them they're worthless and don't know anything, then dangle VERY lowball offers to see if you'll bite. There is no "negotiation" to it, as 19 more people are in the waiting room right behind you with their student loans bearing down on them as well. Grades/journal/etc don't matter a whit, since shitlaw work is mindless cut n' paste that secretaries crank out by the truckload. The court appearances are likewise a joke, and all these firms really need is a law license and a pulse to cover the calendar and churn the files.

I did end up landing a shitlaw job eventually in low-end insurance defense (fender bender auto accidents), worked there about 1.5 years, got a WHOPPING 1500 raise, and average about 55-60 hours a week of work, which was stressful and beyond miserable. Understand that you are merely building "experience" to get another shitty job at slightly better pay, not skills that will transfer to midlaw or other decent practice areas. In most shitlaw areas you'll "top out" at maybe 65 K after 4 or 5 years in the "trenches." Shitlaw billing rates are just too low to pay anyone not bringing in business 100 K or more. Understand also that in shitlaw, 5 years experience isn't much more valuable than 5 months, since most files are routine cut n' paste and not very difficult to churn.

I think law school leaves people with the impression that every case will have weird exceptions to rules, interesting facts, unique angles and nuances, etc. In reality 99% of legal work (esp shitlaw work) is routine and very predictable/boring. There are forms for everything and the partners always admonish you "not to reinvent the wheel" and deviate from the boilerplate. You see, most shitlaw files are flat fee, so the idea is to spend as little time as possible on each one. Even if a novel argument or more research could yield a better result, the business model doesn't allow for this as it operates on volume, not quality.

I'm happy to have left law for good, and my JD might actually help when I get my Masters in Ed. and start applying for admin jobs in public schools. But if I had to do over, I def. would not have attended law school. Nearly every attorney I know and/or worked with feels the same way. The compensation vs. the stress, headaches, and aggravation just ain't worth it. Hell, you can make 65 K driving a truck for UPS with a GED and have nothing to worry about when you leave work. You could likely make 40 K as a bartender at Applebees or something along those lines. I've actually driven a truck and bartended while moving from law into education (waiting on Praxis scores and background checks etc) and after Shitlaw both gigs were like a mardi gras by comparison.

HTH and good luck to you. PM me if you have any questions.

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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby c3pO4 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:18 pm

areyouinsane?

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leobowski
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby leobowski » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:35 pm

seatown12 wrote:Your requirements of biglaw/biggov in the Northwest are ridiculously limiting. You need to get realistic about your prospects, stop being so picky, and find something that will pay the bills.

If you ultimately want to do civil rights or environmental litigation for the government I don't agree that DA/PD or public interest would be a dead end.

I'm guessing your home market is LA, and agree with others that your best prospects are there.

I feel like your ego is standing in your way. Your situation wasn't as great as you thought it was a year ago, and it's not as bad as you think it is now. There are jobs out there for you and it seems like you know what you need to do to get them, so do it.



keg411 wrote:State trial clerkships (not appellate, not supreme). Apply to every single judge in every single state in every single market you would be willing to go to. Mention in your cover letters why you want to be in that particular market/work in that particular court. Apply to the Criminal, Civil, Probate/Chancery/Equity (or whatever your state's equivalent is) and Family divisions. It's a really really good way to make connections for small-midsized firm and local gov't type jobs. Look especially for judges that went to your current law school or your undergrad and send those applications out TOMORROW.

And apply now (like, get off TLS and start putting together a list) because your time may already be up on a lot of these.



I feel like these two posts are the best in the thread. Forget about the PNW. The firm jobs there are going to kids that are top of the class at UW, not randos with no real connections to the area. And the state govt. hiring is very dismal and/or non-existent in Oregon and Washington. The honors program for Washington AG and Oregon DOJ are already filled. And there are widespread hiring freezes across both states. I have better stats and I gave up on the PNW legal market long ago, despite being FROM the area and having solid connections in the legal market there. Just forget about the PNW, it's not gonna happen.

The advice about state clerkships is solid. That may be your best option at this point. Get applications in ASAP. Start searching for court websites and even calling ASAP. There may even be some states that still have a few state appellate clerkships available. Good luck and don't give up.

Also, god buttonpusher STFU. Nobody cares about how you missed biglaw despite having the best moot court brief. Go walk into a door of dicks.

adonai
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby adonai » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:04 pm

buttonpusher wrote:
I'm happy to have left law for good, and my JD might actually help when I get my Masters in Ed. and start applying for admin jobs in public schools. But if I had to do over, I def. would not have attended law school. Nearly every attorney I know and/or worked with feels the same way. The compensation vs. the stress, headaches, and aggravation just ain't worth it. Hell, you can make 65 K driving a truck for UPS with a GED and have nothing to worry about when you leave work. You could likely make 40 K as a bartender at Applebees or something along those lines. I've actually driven a truck and bartended while moving from law into education (waiting on Praxis scores and background checks etc) and after Shitlaw both gigs were like a mardi gras by comparison.

HTH and good luck to you. PM me if you have any questions.

Not trying to be a douche, but the public school system has similar hiring freezes and is arguably just as worse as the legal market right now. How can you expect to jump straight into education admin. without teaching experience? Why would you spend all that money on a JD and then go back to spending more money that is equally a gamble (assuming you have little/no aid)? Just seems pretty counterintuitive to me. If anything, a JD would overqualify you for most positions wouldn't it?

buttonpusher
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby buttonpusher » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:21 pm

Not trying to be a douche, but the public school system has similar hiring freezes and is arguably just as worse as the legal market right now. How can you expect to jump straight into education admin. without teaching experience? Why would you spend all that money on a JD and then go back to spending more money that is equally a gamble (assuming you have little/no aid)? Just seems pretty counterintuitive to me. If anything, a JD would overqualify you for most positions wouldn't it?


I already have 4 years teaching experience at high school level, certified in English & Social Studies. Also my master's tuition is paid 50% by the district I teach in.

I was lucky to make the move out of law when I did. My friends who stuck with shitlaw are all still making crap and working many more hours than me per week, with no exit options or defined career path. With a JD/Masters in Ed. it might be possible in say 10 years to become a superintendent of a regional school, which pays approx. 150 to 175 K. Even vice-principals in my district take home 125 K, although they do work a full 12 month year. Hell, the Sophomore class vice principal in my school is 2 years younger than me (33). If I'd have skipped law school and had 5 extra years and my Masters already, I'd have been a good shot for that gig as well. But as I said, the 3 wasted years in lawschool + couple years in shitlaw are simply sunk costs to me, as they'll soon be to many, many people on this message board.

Bottom line is it's simply a far better career than law, hands down. For every TTT solo you hear about making millions on tort cases, 1000 more are struggling to get boilerplate foreclosure work and consumer Ch 7's and such, or grinding it as shitlaw "associates" making mid 50s or 60s with crap benefits, no pension/401K, and constant stress & aggravation. It has no chance to get better and in fact will get worse as the ABA accredits more TTTT's each year.

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Notor
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby Notor » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:51 pm

Unless your "home market" is like Kabul or Sadr City I think you are being absolutely ridiculous. No city in this nation is so "terrible" that there isn't one neighborhood or location where you could live and not being moderately happy. Cleveland/Detroit are some of the most depressing cities in this country but they still have nice neighborhoods/schools/arts even if large parts are in major decline. I'm sorry you had a bad high school experience but to constrain your only real shot at obtaining a job because of negative experiences that you had 7+ years ago is just absurd.

c3pO4
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby c3pO4 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:56 pm

buttonpusher wrote:
Not trying to be a douche, but the public school system has similar hiring freezes and is arguably just as worse as the legal market right now. How can you expect to jump straight into education admin. without teaching experience? Why would you spend all that money on a JD and then go back to spending more money that is equally a gamble (assuming you have little/no aid)? Just seems pretty counterintuitive to me. If anything, a JD would overqualify you for most positions wouldn't it?


I already have 4 years teaching experience at high school level, certified in English & Social Studies. Also my master's tuition is paid 50% by the district I teach in.

I was lucky to make the move out of law when I did. My friends who stuck with shitlaw are all still making crap and working many more hours than me per week, with no exit options or defined career path. With a JD/Masters in Ed. it might be possible in say 10 years to become a superintendent of a regional school, which pays approx. 150 to 175 K. Even vice-principals in my district take home 125 K, although they do work a full 12 month year. Hell, the Sophomore class vice principal in my school is 2 years younger than me (33). If I'd have skipped law school and had 5 extra years and my Masters already, I'd have been a good shot for that gig as well. But as I said, the 3 wasted years in lawschool + couple years in shitlaw are simply sunk costs to me, as they'll soon be to many, many people on this message board.

Bottom line is it's simply a far better career than law, hands down. For every TTT solo you hear about making millions on tort cases, 1000 more are struggling to get boilerplate foreclosure work and consumer Ch 7's and such, or grinding it as shitlaw "associates" making mid 50s or 60s with crap benefits, no pension/401K, and constant stress & aggravation. It has no chance to get better and in fact will get worse as the ABA accredits more TTTT's each year.


i love imagining one of my HS teachers megapoasting on TLS about shitlaw, lol

buttonpusher
Posts: 43
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby buttonpusher » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:03 pm

i love imagining one of my HS teachers megapoasting on TLS about shitlaw, lol


There are half a dozen former attorneys working at my school, most from excellent law schools: U Penn, Colombia, Boston College, and UCLA. Most of them were actually Biglaw associates who simply got burned out on the legal lifestyle after a couple years.

Anonymous User
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Re: Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:40 am

First, thank you, everyone, for taking the time to post on this thread and provide candid advice. I really appreciate it.

Button, I would like to thank you for the frank discussion of the reality of this situation. I understand how grim things look, and know that similar experiences might very well await me no matter what I do, and seeing a valid viewpoint that affirms that I am not being excessively pessimistic helps me formulate a valid decision. Again, I thank you for writing such extensive posts.

I'll be reviewing the advice stated thus far carefully tomorrow. Difficult to think straight after 4 9% ABV beers, hahaha!




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