Fall 3L: Solid resume. No offers. Career dead in a ditch? Forum

[REALLYBIGLAW]

The military is a great career - really, at this point for OP, choosing a particular field, enlisting in that field, getting trained, and benefitting from loan repayment schemes might not be a bad idea. OCS could work too.

Even the military is doing layoffs. They have too many people that are staying in (retention) to avoid the civilian job market. None of them want to leave now on the expected schedule because they know jobs are tough to find. So they might as well stay in the military an extra 4 years to wait for a better job market.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07 ... r-surplus/

Navy is overstaffed in 31 different job categories: jet engine mechanics, avionics technicians, electricians.

The Navy plans to let go of 3,000 sailors with between seven and 14 years of experience after economic uncertainty put the service in the unusual position of having a manpower surplus.

Rep. Mike Coffman, who sits on the House Armed Services Committee and served in the Marine Corps, says it's not a good situation for those young sailors.

"There's no retirement for them and... there's no severance for them," Coffman said. "So essentially they're with so many other Americans on unemployment."

Coffman told Fox News it's not unusual for the military's retention rates to go up during bad economic times, but he called this particular case "unprecedented."

"It's never gone up to this level where so many people, the vast majority of people want to stay in the United States Navy."

The Air Force retention rates are also up to a 6-year high, causing it to convene a similar reduction-in -force board. The Air Force will review the records of more than 9,000 officers, mostly majors, and roughly 400 are expected to be let go.

[zomginternets]

Guess no job is worth it except being a teacher and getting your M.Ed, huh?

[johansantana21]

Guess no job is worth it except being a teacher and getting your M.Ed, huh?

No, can you read?

[TIKITEMBO]

.

[zomginternets]

Guess no job is worth it except being a teacher and getting your M.Ed, huh?

No, can you read?

Sarcasm, bro. I was lamenting Buttonpusher aka reallybiglaw's predictable troll.

[REALLYBIGLAW]

Sarcasm, bro. I was lamenting Buttonpusher aka reallybiglaw's predictable troll.

1) I am not Buttonpusher.
2) I don't think trying to make a transition from unemployed JD to teacher had much of a chance. I don't know anything about the teacher market other than what I read in the news, but it seems like there are plenty of unemployed teachers (with years of experience) that you would be going up against.

Why would a school district hire a fresh JD over an experienced teacher? Seems like a long shot to me.
I don't see any good fallback options for JDs that fail in this market.

[romothesavior]

(1) I'm in the top 10% at a school ranked about # 50, on a respected secondary journal, and published in that secondary journal. I transferred to my # 50 school (region where I want to practice but have never lived since last year) from a # 65 school (region where I grew up but never, ever, want to live and practice in). My current school specializes in the field of law that I am most interested in.

Terrible situation OP, and I'm really sorry to hear it. Don't know what to tell you, but I agree with others that you should not drop out this late. Hopefully something happens after the bar, as that is when a significant chunk of people get jobs. May not be a glamorous or well-paying gig, but if you want to be a lawyer then its better than nothing.

That said, the bolded is what has screwed you. Job prospects as a transfer are tough enough as it is, but a lateral transfer out of your home market to another market where you have fewer ties? Not a good idea. And to do so because of a mistaken perception that a school's "specialization" would help you?

If I were you, I'd try to get back home, although even that may be tough. If it comes down to unemployed in an area you like vs. unemployed in a place you hate, is it worth it?

Good luck to you OP. You have a solid resume and I hope things work out.

[romothesavior]

St. Louis, and other horrendous southern southern urban areas.

Also, wut.

[c3pO4]

St. Louis, and other horrendous southern southern urban areas.

Also, wut.

where is this southern south you speak of? i bet they have great beaches

[keg411]

To clarify, I am not suggesting that teaching is an "ideal" plan B for a failed law school graduate. Buttonpusher raised the point that it is a viable alternative career. He was viciously attacked and I am defending his thesis, not suggesting it as the best course of action.

For a JD under 29 with a stillborn legal career, I still think that Army OCS is the best Plan B.

http://www.armyocs.com

I'm saying teaching's not a viable plan B for someone who had JD in-hand, though it certainly may have been a better choice in the first place. The economics of the hiring market for teachers is dismal - the market for washed-up JDs trying to get a teaching gig would be beyond absurd.

That's what I was saying. Hence directing it to BP and 0L's (not that it would be a better route for 0L's unless they have a math/science degree or are willing to do the requirements to teach math/science). Getting a teaching job in a desirable area with great benefits REALLY is harder than getting biglawl based on what I've seen my peers do and attempt to do. Plus, teaching is all about availability and budgets, while at least most actual BigLaw firms take 10-80 associates/SA's per year.

Hours may be better, but it doesn't help if you can't get a job at all. And the only places that have openings are mostly undesirable and have openings for a reason -- teaching in these types of areas is a VERY high stress job and there is a reason for teacher turnover in these schools/districts.

[Anonymous User]

recently had a long discussion with a partner at a biglaw firm. he believes hiring will increase in 3-4 years. most biglaw and mid-sized firms are still doing very well. i know he's probably not as linked-in to the nuances of socio-economics as a high-school social studies teacher, but i still think it is encouraging.

[buttonpusher]

It would be fun to have a reality shows which follows these fools thru 3 years of law school, graduation, the bar'zam, and their eventual part-time position at Starbucks and life in a Salvation Army shelter or "Hooverville" hovel:


http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 7&t=171939

[Gecko of Doom]

Wow, the three areyouinsane alts in this thread are[/is] being TOTALLY helpful in addressing OP's issues. You seem like a wonderful individual. I wish we were friends IRL.

[keg411]

It would be fun to have a reality shows which follows these fools thru 3 years of law school, graduation, the bar'zam, and their eventual part-time position at Starbucks and life in a Salvation Army shelter or "Hooverville" hovel:


http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 7&t=171939

Along with the Masters of Education people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3IoHsxqAa8

[Anonymous User]

Hey OP, I am totally a OL, but I feel like I've got pretty solid networking skills and I hope some of the ideas I'll toss out there will appeal to you.

I know that you said you're hoping to avoid one of the "lesser desired" areas of public interest, but honestly I think they might be a great way for you to make some contacts.

This isn't good advice. OP might consider it a "lesser desired" job situation, but with all the budget pressures on public interest law right now, people who have a long track record of being genuinely interested in public interest work are facing an even more competitive job market than people working in the private sector. Public interest organizations can sniff people like OP out.

OP, no disrespect intended, but I think that you need to re-assess how "solid" your resume is -- when I read your description of it, I thought it was a very generic resume that would have a hard time standing out from the crowd. I know you said you were planning on doing clinic, but if it is at ALL possible (it's quite late so this might be unrealistic) I'd drop the clinic plans and hustle to find a corporate legal internship plus other volunteer activities. If you're really not looking for a large firm at this point, you don't have to worry about employers being concerned that you picked up "bad habits" (which I think is BS anyway, but I'm not a hiring person at a large law firm); with your academic credentials, a well-respected smaller local firm (yes, these do exist, but you'll have to slash your expectations for pay) might very well become interested in you if you have more to offer than the standard governmental internships, which everyone in this day and age does. Work your personal network and make sure people outside of the legal world know you're looking and pass your resume on to lawyers that they know. I don't have the same credentials as you -- probably bottom third of T14, but I had a mix of corporate, academic, and local government internships/activities all through my 2L year (I was really busy), and my "very impressive" resume got me hired at a very well-respected firm in a small legal market that wasn't even looking to hire first years. I'll probably never work in a large law firm (never really wanted to anyway), but I know that if I succeed at this firm, I'll be well-positioned to work at mid-sized firms in a nearby larger market.

As for magistrate judge clerkships, now is not too late at all -- magistrate judges tend to hire on varying schedules.

[buttonpusher]

OP,

It also might not be a bad idea to register with the temporary "national" doc review staffing agencies like HireCounsel, Hudson, Update, Robert Half etc. Although the projects rarely take unadmitted JD's anymore (since they can get admitted lawyers for the same price as the oversupply is so tremendous), you might as well get your ducks lined up for this as a possible 'Plan B" if all else fails.

I'd also speak to your school's Lexis rep and try to get a "Concordance" training session scheduled, so you'll have that on your resume (concordance is the most widely used doc review software and a Lexis product). It's a complete joke of course- doc review software is pretty much as "idiot proof" as operating a light switch- but still being a newbie it doesn't hurt to have a few of these BS certificates for platforms like Concordance, Ringtail, Summation, Relativity, and the other commonly used doc review systems. The agencies nowadays like to see BS like this so they can sell you to the firms as an "experienced" coder and possible team lead or QC'er, which can sometimes get you an extra 2 or 3 bucks an hour on certain gigs.

Doc review will also give you a good idea of how mind-numbingly dull, dry, tedious, pointless, and all-around miserable corporate/finance/typical Biglaw really is, and a look at how miserable the 1st & 2nd year associates (who are your doc review "babysitters") truly are. Picking fly turds out of black pepper is exponentially more interesting than most of these so-called "deals" are. Another hilarious thing is if the hedge funders or other clients pay a visit and you see how even the Biglaw partners are crapping pants and sucking up to them while the finance guys treat them like janitors. Even junior hedge fund managers make at least double what most Biglaw partners do, for about 1/4 the work and hassle. Even at the highest levels, law is still a joke re: earnings potential when compared to Wall Street boyz.

[TIKITEMBO]

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[Anonymous User]

Later on I went on to make it clearer that I meant seeking out public interest organizations not so much for employment but to volunteer at those organizations to make contacts/network. Those organizations may not hire you, but if you're interested in gov't especially then they'll have some contacts from their lobbying. PM if you'd like more info, but I've met many people like a woman from the Department of Labor and a deferree (for one year) from Kirkland and Ellis just in volunteering at one big organization where I got to sit around chatting with people like that for a good 3 hours. I know there are plenty of people who volunteer at those organizations that have good connections to gov't and surprisingly enough biglaw as many organizations like it depend on big law firms to help them with their pro-bono cases. Not saying they'd have any pull, but they might have some names and places to look. Again, I think it's a better route for seeking a government job than for big law.

I know what you wrote. It still remains unhelpful to the OP, who: a. doesn't have a sincere interest in public interest, and b. already has had two government internships doing exactly what you described.

[sundance95]

Didn't read the entire thread, but wanted to advise against an LLM. A good friend with a JD from a similarly ranked school as OPs did Gtown's tax LLM, killed it in terms of grades, and then had an abysmal time finding work. He finally found a great opportunity six months after graduating, but he was sweating it big time until then; it was literally the last interview he had before he was going to go the doc review/shitlaw route.

Just to anticipate the inevitable question-he's not aspie, nor does he have trouble with interpersonal communications or networking. He thinks his lower ranked JD school hurt him despite the LLM; others who did worse in the LLM program but came from higher ranked schools seemed to do better.

[buttonpusher]

Didn't read the entire thread, but wanted to advise against an LLM. A good friend with a JD from a similarly ranked school as OPs did Gtown's tax LLM, killed it in terms of grades, and then had an abysmal time finding work. He finally found a great opportunity six months after graduating, but he was sweating it big time until then; it was literally the last interview he had before he was going to go the doc review/shitlaw route.

Just to anticipate the inevitable question-he's not aspie, nor does he have trouble with interpersonal communications or networking. He thinks his lower ranked JD school hurt him despite the LLM; others who did worse in the LLM program but came from higher ranked schools seemed to do better.

There are literally tons of recent NYU Tax LLM's schlepping around doc review gigs at 25-30 an hour in NYC. Many of these folks saw the NYU LLM as a chance to "sanitize" a crappy TTT JD from say Brooklyn, 'Bozo, St Johns or the other also-ran schools. But all they really did was try & "polish a turd"- as the poster above said, w/out a Top 14 JD to go along with said LLM you're basically dead in the water nowadays. My buddy went to Suffolk Law and did the U Florida Tax LLM (which is 2nd or third best behind NYU), and had Big 4 accounting experience (though not a full CPA) prior to law school. He got no bites on his resume at all and had been doing doc review for 3+ years for the usual shitrates in NYC.

[LawIdiot86]

Didn't read the entire thread, but wanted to advise against an LLM. A good friend with a JD from a similarly ranked school as OPs did Gtown's tax LLM, killed it in terms of grades, and then had an abysmal time finding work. He finally found a great opportunity six months after graduating, but he was sweating it big time until then; it was literally the last interview he had before he was going to go the doc review/shitlaw route.

Just to anticipate the inevitable question-he's not aspie, nor does he have trouble with interpersonal communications or networking. He thinks his lower ranked JD school hurt him despite the LLM; others who did worse in the LLM program but came from higher ranked schools seemed to do better.

I'm familiar with Georgetown's securities LLM and while the options for tax people are slightly better, they still suck. I don't know how much the lower-ranked school hurt your friend as most of the US JDs I know at Georgetown came from lower-ranked schools to improve their resume. I don't doubt your friend has good social skills, but it's just an extreme crapshoot to do an LLM when the schools and industry have no formal recruitment path like they do for JDs at OCI.

[sundance95]

I'm familiar with Georgetown's securities LLM and while the options for tax people are slightly better, they still suck. I don't know how much the lower-ranked school hurt your friend as most of the US JDs I know at Georgetown came from lower-ranked schools to improve their resume. I don't doubt your friend has good social skills, but it's just an extreme crapshoot to do an LLM when the schools and industry have no formal recruitment path like they do for JDs at OCI.

I agree with everything you say, but just wanted to point out that there is a formal tax LLM recruitment OCI that GULC and NYU combine to put on each year.

[dr123]

Some thoughts for OP:

• The Northwest is a fairly small legal market, and you may not get what you want exactly where you want. I know a lawyer, for example, who commutes from Portland to Seattle.

Ok, I'm callin bullshit on this. That is like a 3 hour drive w/ no traffic. For a morning commute you'd have to leave at like 3/3:30 am to get there by 8.

[TIKITEMBO]

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[zomginternets]

Some thoughts for OP:

• The Northwest is a fairly small legal market, and you may not get what you want exactly where you want. I know a lawyer, for example, who commutes from Portland to Seattle.

Ok, I'm callin bullshit on this. That is like a 3 hour drive w/ no traffic. For a morning commute you'd have to leave at like 3/3:30 am to get there by 8.

My boss at my last job commuted between San Diego and Los Angeles. He only came in 2-3 days a week (the other days he flew up to NorCal for hearings or just worked from home). He did it for about 3 years too. So it's possible it's not BS, but he's utterly insane.