Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

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Anonymous User
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Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:21 pm

I know everyone on here hates the idea of getting an LLM, but please hear me out for a second...

I'm a T14 3L who has a mid-level firm offer in a small market that I have no intention of living in long term (unless I'm forced to). The salary is about 90K per year, and I'm paying sticker.

I do not want to work at a firm, nor in the city the firm is in, but it looks like I'm about out of options. I did a 2L honors government internship during 2L, but the agency's hiring is frozen.

Thus, I've thought about getting an LLM (only one that is funded, so it'd probably be a random one abroad) to bide time and reapply places next year. I would 1) pray that the government started to unfreeze and honors positions came available and 2) apply to things outside the legal field (that I've already missed this year due to deadlines).

Am I just being stubborn at this point, and should I suck it up and take the sure thing? The thought of being stuck at the firm for years is suffocating, and that's what's stopping me from just accepting the offer.

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Grizz
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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby Grizz » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:30 pm

I wouldn't count on the govt. unfreezing.

Would you really prefer to not to law at all than not work as a govt. lawyer?

I'd take the job and suck it up. You have sticker debt.

ran12
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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby ran12 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:31 pm

Suck it up for a few years and then move on to something you like better. The gov't hiring freeze isn't ending next year.

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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:52 pm

Grizz wrote:I wouldn't count on the govt. unfreezing.

Would you really prefer to not to law at all than not work as a govt. lawyer?

I'd take the job and suck it up. You have sticker debt.


You're right; counting on the government unfreezing is a risky bet.

I would prefer to not work as a lawyer at all if the alternative is to work in the geographic area where I have an offer, which for various reasons, is and likely will remain to be after an LLM, the only place I can get an entry-level firm offer. My main fear is that I will be stuck in this area for years if I take the firm offer, since potential employers will see it as a red flag if I try to jet out of the place fast. At least an LLM doesn't lock me down for that long, and if I still dont have any options after it, I could probably go back to this firm (although I would have lost a year's salary).

I realize this sounds incredibly whiny, but for personal reasons--like wanting to have some kind of a life outside of work--I really don't want to live in the place where the firm is located. I also don't want to make stupid decisions that'll leave me homeless, either.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

duckmoney
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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby duckmoney » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:54 pm

Which secondary market? In many secondary markets, 90k is enough to service sticker debt.

I'd take the job and run with it, and see if you can sneak into govt or lateral into a firm in your preferred market.

A jerb is a jerb, and delaying with an LLM sounds like a bad call. The job may not be there when you get back, and nothing better may have come along.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:56 pm

Take the job and run; sorry that that isn't what you want to hear.

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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:58 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Take the job and run; sorry that that isn't what you want to hear.


No, it's fine. I appreciate all opinions. I don't want my pride and stubbornness to screw over my future, if that's what is about to happen.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:01 pm

I'm in a similar spot, not sticker price debt, but some debt and I don't have a job like you do. I'd withdraw from the LLM in a heartbeat for a 90K job in a secondary market, heck even a random rural market at 70K would convince me to jump the LLM ship.

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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:05 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:I'm in a similar spot, not sticker price debt, but some debt and I don't have a job like you do. I'd withdraw from the LLM in a heartbeat for a 90K job in a secondary market, heck even a random rural market at 70K would convince me to jump the LLM ship.


Out of curiosity, why are you so anti-LLM (if it didn't cause you to incur additional debt)?

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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:12 pm

Why would you need to "bide time" to apply for other jobs? Take the small market job, gain experience, keep applying to gov't jobs.

I can't imagine some shitty LLM will make you more marketable than actual job experience.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:I'm in a similar spot, not sticker price debt, but some debt and I don't have a job like you do. I'd withdraw from the LLM in a heartbeat for a 90K job in a secondary market, heck even a random rural market at 70K would convince me to jump the LLM ship.


Out of curiosity, why are you so anti-LLM (if it didn't cause you to incur additional debt)?

I'm incurring some debt, just not sticker and as I start taking LLM classes and talking to my classmates, I've figured out that my T14 has no career resources for LLM. Also, in talking to employers, almost none of them consider the LLM as anything more then a continuation of 3L. For even the reduced rate I'm getting, it's annoying to be spending my time doing something that employers don't give a shit about and that my school doesn't support with even 1/10th the resources per student at it does in the JD program. When I went to a student club meeting and the program adviser got up to speak, he went through a list of the four or five things he's done to find us jobs, all of which have failed, but that he wanted to let us know he was at least trying.

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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:15 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Why would you need to "bide time" to apply for other jobs? Take the small market job, gain experience, keep applying to gov't jobs.

I can't imagine some shitty LLM will make you more marketable than actual job experience.


More time would help in that I could retain my eligibility for government honors programs if they do unfreeze and can apply to non-legal jobs that I didn't apply to this year. If I went to the firm, I'd be required to stay there for a few years before I could go to the government or go into non-legal jobs (to avoid looking like a flight risk). But you're right, actual job experience is valuable.

LawIdiot86
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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Why would you need to "bide time" to apply for other jobs? Take the small market job, gain experience, keep applying to gov't jobs.

I can't imagine some shitty LLM will make you more marketable than actual job experience.


More time would help in that I could retain my eligibility for government honors programs if they do unfreeze and can apply to non-legal jobs that I didn't apply to this year. If I went to the firm, I'd be required to stay there for a few years before I could go to the government or go into non-legal jobs (to avoid looking like a flight risk). But you're right, actual job experience is valuable.

Which gov't honors programs are so easy that retaining eligibility is worth it? The only one I can think of is PMF and they give you a two year window anyway. Otherwise the odds are upwards of 3/500 to 2/2,200, even if they triple the program size, that's a crapshoot.

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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:36 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:I'm incurring some debt, just not sticker and as I start taking LLM classes and talking to my classmates, I've figured out that my T14 has no career resources for LLM. Also, in talking to employers, almost none of them consider the LLM as anything more then a continuation of 3L. For even the reduced rate I'm getting, it's annoying to be spending my time doing something that employers don't give a shit about and that my school doesn't support with even 1/10th the resources per student at it does in the JD program. When I went to a student club meeting and the program adviser got up to speak, he went through a list of the four or five things he's done to find us jobs, all of which have failed, but that he wanted to let us know he was at least trying.


That makes sense. Another concern is that employers won't just view it as a continuation of 3L but also as a fallback to not finding a job. That's something I hadn't thought about.

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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:38 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:Which gov't honors programs are so easy that retaining eligibility is worth it? The only one I can think of is PMF and they give you a two year window anyway. Otherwise the odds are upwards of 3/500 to 2/2,200, even if they triple the program size, that's a crapshoot.


Good point. I've made it to the last stages of a lot of government honors programs this year (and am still waiting for a lot of them to make decisions), so if I knew hiring would go back to normal next year, I'd think my chances are decent. That's not something anyone can predict for certain, though.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:Which gov't honors programs are so easy that retaining eligibility is worth it? The only one I can think of is PMF and they give you a two year window anyway. Otherwise the odds are upwards of 3/500 to 2/2,200, even if they triple the program size, that's a crapshoot.


Good point. I've made it to the last stages of a lot of government honors programs this year (and am still waiting for a lot of them to make decisions), so if I knew hiring would go back to normal next year, I'd think my chances are decent. That's not something anyone can predict for certain, though.



Not sure if you have been following the news on the payroll tax extension talks, but cuts to federal employees are very likely to be a part of the deal. I would put the chance of a lift on the freeze at less than 1%.

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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:46 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Not sure if you have been following the news on the payroll tax extension talks, but cuts to federal employees are very likely to be a part of the deal. I would put the chance of a lift on the freeze at less than 1%.


No, part of my stubbornness has been refusing to watch the news and ignore the realities of government hiring. However, those at my agency all firmly stated that I should predict the freezes to last at least close to five years. But again, I'm stubborn.

I'm willing to admit that not getting accepted into the 1-2 year government honors programs might be a blessing in disguise. I have a feeling that a lot of those kids are going to have a tough time finding a place to go after those short honors programs are up.

Sigh.

(Edit: But the good news is, once/if there is hiring again, there's going to be a TON of it, so that's a ray of some hope)

LawIdiot86
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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby LawIdiot86 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:Not sure if you have been following the news on the payroll tax extension talks, but cuts to federal employees are very likely to be a part of the deal. I would put the chance of a lift on the freeze at less than 1%.


No, part of my stubbornness has been refusing to watch the news and ignore the realities of government hiring. However, those at my agency all firmly stated that I should predict the freezes to last at least close to five years. But again, I'm stubborn.

I'm willing to admit that not getting accepted into the 1-2 year government honors programs might be a blessing in disguise. I have a feeling that a lot of those kids are going to have a tough time finding a place to go after those short honors programs are up.

Sigh.

(Edit: But the good news is, once/if there is hiring again, there's going to be a TON of it, so that's a ray of some hope)

If you're so set on federal employment, an LLM will make you eligible for some GS-12 non-legal positions, but that assumes you have the other skills for whatever field those jobs are in that vault you over gov't employees seeking promotions.

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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:30 pm

We just had a career panel on international law in the private sector. Among the panelists was a firm lawyer who did work in international trademarks and an in-house counsel with an multinational corp. Both had foreign LLMs and both recommended them for students interested in doing transnational work. Both stressed getting the LLM at a school with a good reputation abroad. The in-house received his from Cambridge; I forget where the firm partner obtained hers. I found it interesting that they both recommended an LLM.

MrAnon
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Re: Biding time with an LLM: Worth it?

Postby MrAnon » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:We just had a career panel on international law in the private sector. Among the panelists was a firm lawyer who did work in international trademarks and an in-house counsel with an multinational corp. Both had foreign LLMs and both recommended them for students interested in doing transnational work. Both stressed getting the LLM at a school with a good reputation abroad. The in-house received his from Cambridge; I forget where the firm partner obtained hers. I found it interesting that they both recommended an LLM.


Its just like everything else in law school, a couple people (the top 5% or whatever) will say how great it was (for them).




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