How bad is the legal job market?

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headandshoulderos
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby headandshoulderos » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:12 pm

BeenDidThat wrote:
headandshoulderos wrote:
BeenDidThat wrote:


Judging by how you write, you probably screw around a lot.


nobody gives a shit about your judgment. so someone who "Screws around a lot" has a great vault SA lined up. i thought that meant i wouldnt have a decent job? your reasoning is about as good as herman cain's here.

ninerfan got it right. you can do everything right and still not get a job. you are in denial because it makes you feel better about yourself, but the numbers don't lie -- many in the T14 get biglaw, but it's not correlated with "screwing around" and it's not the vast majority.


"Decent job" includes things other than big law.

In fairness, the personal attack wasn't nice of me. But you have the analytical ability to understand what's being said. Why you don't exercise it is beyond me. The vast majority of T14 grads who don't screw around will get decent jobs. Not less than half.


well idk what your point is anymore. originally you +1'd the guy who said 100k job is guaranteed...

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vanwinkle
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:17 pm

taxguy wrote:The legal market now is horrible. NY alone is producting a surplus of 7500 lawyers a year! You really need to read the follow article:

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/258744/ ... l-scam.htm

Hey, it's taxguy!

Taxguy, don't use anon just to post URLs. Thanks.

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NinerFan
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby NinerFan » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:21 pm

BeenDidThat wrote:
headandshoulderos wrote:
BeenDidThat wrote:


Judging by how you write, you probably screw around a lot.


nobody gives a shit about your judgment. so someone who "Screws around a lot" has a great vault SA lined up. i thought that meant i wouldnt have a decent job? your reasoning is about as good as herman cain's here.

ninerfan got it right. you can do everything right and still not get a job. you are in denial because it makes you feel better about yourself, but the numbers don't lie -- many in the T14 get biglaw, but it's not correlated with "screwing around" and it's not the vast majority.


"Decent job" includes things other than big law.

In fairness, the personal attack wasn't nice of me. But you have the analytical ability to understand what's being said. Why you don't exercise it is beyond me. The vast majority of T14 grads who don't screw around will get decent jobs. Not less than half.

Also, your bragging wasn't called for. You may want to go back re-think the conditional implied in my statement. Your reasoning is the one that's shitty. I'm gonna go back to studying. Toodaloo.


What's your definition of a decent job?

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S-IV
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby S-IV » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:28 pm

OP, what is more important to you: becoming a lawyer or not living with your parents? If the latter is of higher priority, you shouldn't have went to law school in the first place. Go study; you'll be fine.

BeenDidThat
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby BeenDidThat » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:30 pm

NinerFan wrote:
BeenDidThat wrote:
headandshoulderos wrote:
BeenDidThat wrote:


Judging by how you write, you probably screw around a lot.


nobody gives a shit about your judgment. so someone who "Screws around a lot" has a great vault SA lined up. i thought that meant i wouldnt have a decent job? your reasoning is about as good as herman cain's here.

ninerfan got it right. you can do everything right and still not get a job. you are in denial because it makes you feel better about yourself, but the numbers don't lie -- many in the T14 get biglaw, but it's not correlated with "screwing around" and it's not the vast majority.


"Decent job" includes things other than big law.

In fairness, the personal attack wasn't nice of me. But you have the analytical ability to understand what's being said. Why you don't exercise it is beyond me. The vast majority of T14 grads who don't screw around will get decent jobs. Not less than half.

Also, your bragging wasn't called for. You may want to go back re-think the conditional implied in my statement. Your reasoning is the one that's shitty. I'm gonna go back to studying. Toodaloo.


What's your definition of a decent job?


Biglaw, midlaw making in excess of 60k starting, Fedgov, public interest (if by choice), state or local gov't (if by choice).

decaf735
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby decaf735 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:48 pm

S-IV wrote:OP, what is more important to you: becoming a lawyer or not living with your parents? If the latter is of higher priority, you shouldn't have went to law school in the first place. Go study; you'll be fine.



No, no, no. You shouldn't have gone to law school in the first place.

But I definitely don't agree with that/ don't understand the relevance.

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sunynp
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby sunynp » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:56 pm

What are your other options right now? I would suggest at least taking exams and seeing how well you do. You know there is no guarantee you will get a job even from the top 14. Post again after you know some grades. And post what your other options are.

There are numberous threads on this site from t14 people who struck out at OCI . There are also numberous threads about articles written in the past year about the job market. And there are threads where people talk about getting jobs. You need to spend some time reading this site.

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S-IV
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby S-IV » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:59 pm

decaf735 wrote:
S-IV wrote:OP, what is more important to you: becoming a lawyer or not living with your parents? If the latter is of higher priority, you shouldn't have went to law school in the first place. Go study; you'll be fine.



No, no, no. You shouldn't have gone to law school in the first place.

But I definitely don't agree with that/ don't understand the relevance.


Whoops! Thanks for the revision, dcaf.

The relevance is that it seems as though law school is just a means to the end of OP being self-supporting in life. There are plenty of other, probably easier, ways to do so.

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shepdawg
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby shepdawg » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:23 pm

If you're at a T14, you'll be fine. However, it is apparent that you are a rich kid that has everything handed to you, and is still on daddy's teet. I recommend dropping out of law school, asking daddy for the money he would have given you for law school, and blowing it on an awesome world tour. When you get back, and say "Daddy, I spent all that money," you'll get more.

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vanwinkle
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:44 pm

shepdawg wrote:If you're at a T14, you'll be fine. However, it is apparent that you are a rich kid that has everything handed to you, and is still on daddy's teet. I recommend dropping out of law school, asking daddy for the money he would have given you for law school, and blowing it on an awesome world tour. When you get back, and say "Daddy, I spent all that money," you'll get more.

I lol'd.

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Duke Silver
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby Duke Silver » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:58 pm

shepdawg wrote:If you're at a T14, you'll be fine. However, it is apparent that you are a rich kid that has everything handed to you, and is still on daddy's teet. I recommend dropping out of law school, asking daddy for the money he would have given you for law school, and blowing it on an awesome world tour. When you get back, and say "Daddy, I spent all that money," you'll get more.


For some reason, I imagine Ron Swanson saying this. And it's awesome.

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FlanAl
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby FlanAl » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:14 pm

in 2011 there were more big law SA's than students in the t14.
https://spreadsheets.google.com/a/corne ... XMHc&gid=1
There were actually almost enough SA's for every student from Yale down to Wustl. To be fair I was too lazy to count all the nalp survey forms myself but the ones I double checked were correct That number only includes SA's from majorish markets (Yes I realize that big law hires SA's outside the t18 schools and that these SA's don't necessarily translate into full-time jobs.)

Another tidbit is this thread viewtopic.php?f=23&t=163264
Obviously Chicago is going to do better than a lot of t14's but 91% of the students getting a good summer job based on actual hard data should be more convincing than the general "doom and gloom" out there.

decaf735
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby decaf735 » Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:19 pm

S-IV wrote:
decaf735 wrote:
S-IV wrote:OP, what is more important to you: becoming a lawyer or not living with your parents? If the latter is of higher priority, you shouldn't have went to law school in the first place. Go study; you'll be fine.



No, no, no. You shouldn't have gone to law school in the first place.

But I definitely don't agree with that/ don't understand the relevance.


Whoops! Thanks for the revision, dcaf.

The relevance is that it seems as though law school is just a means to the end of OP being self-supporting in life. There are plenty of other, probably easier, ways to do so.



Ah okay I misunderstood. Yes I agree with that

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Doritos
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby Doritos » Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:55 pm

shepdawg wrote:If you're at a T14, you'll be fine.


I stopped reading here and lol'ed at my computer.

Renzo
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby Renzo » Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:13 pm

Is a troll considered successful if it generates three pages of discussion about whether or not it's a troll, but no discussion about the actual topic?

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vanwinkle
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:36 pm

Renzo wrote:Is a troll considered successful if it generates three pages of discussion about whether or not it's a troll, but no discussion about the actual topic?

Not really. A troll wastes people's time; if folks spot the troll and argue about him, they're choosing to waste their time themselves.

*awaits 3 more pages of meta-debate about trolls*

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Kirk
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby Kirk » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:15 pm

It is December and everyone is freaking out about exams. We worry that median scores are a death sentence. I can say that at the MVP level, there are concerns about even being accepted for an unpaid spot at the DA’s office. On day one there was the hope for a $3K a week SA Biglaw gig. . .expectations of grandeur has turned to dilutions of grandeur.

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:21 pm

Kirk wrote:It is December and everyone is freaking out about exams. We worry that median scores are a death sentence. I can say that at the MVP level, there are concerns about even being accepted for an unpaid spot at the DA’s office. On day one there was the hope for a $3K a week SA Biglaw gig. . .expectations of grandeur has turned to dilutions of grandeur.


2/3 of MVP students are still getting biglaw and/or Article III clerkships.

Anonymous User
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:42 pm

Try wondering where you would have been had you opted for T20 at sticker v. T2 at full scholarship. Top 10% with 6 years of WE and no 2L summer job in sight. I'm still trying to figure out if I made the right decision. I keep trying to remind myself that I probably would not be nearly as high ranked if I were at a T20, but that hasn't done me a lot of good thus far.

Anonymous User
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:05 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Kirk wrote:It is December and everyone is freaking out about exams. We worry that median scores are a death sentence. I can say that at the MVP level, there are concerns about even being accepted for an unpaid spot at the DA’s office. On day one there was the hope for a $3K a week SA Biglaw gig. . .expectations of grandeur has turned to dilutions of grandeur.


2/3 of MVP students are still getting biglaw and/or Article III clerkships.



You have no idea what you're talking about. This may have been true four years ago. Today, maybe 2/3 are going into private practice and/or any clerkship. ~25% graduate without any job, dude.

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NinerFan
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby NinerFan » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Kirk wrote:It is December and everyone is freaking out about exams. We worry that median scores are a death sentence. I can say that at the MVP level, there are concerns about even being accepted for an unpaid spot at the DA’s office. On day one there was the hope for a $3K a week SA Biglaw gig. . .expectations of grandeur has turned to dilutions of grandeur.


2/3 of MVP students are still getting biglaw and/or Article III clerkships.



You have no idea what you're talking about. This may have been true four years ago. Today, maybe 2/3 are going into private practice and/or any clerkship. ~25% graduate without any job, dude.


http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx
http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/about/ ... htm#career
http://www.law.upenn.edu/cpp/prospectiv ... stics.html

If you trust what the law schools say, a 2/3 figure is consistent to what the schools are reporting. Virginia's data is deceiving because they lump together classes 08-10, which I'm sure we can agree is going to be off. Props to Michigan for being much more discerning in breaking down where people end up in terms of # of attorneys per office, which is a good way to generalize whether they're at a "good" law firm or not. Penn is hard to tell as well because they don't offer anything more specific than "law firm"

c3pO4
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby c3pO4 » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:38 pm

NinerFan wrote:
If you trust what the law schools say,


Are you serious? Do you know anything about reporting of law school employment stats?

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Grizz
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby Grizz » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:43 pm

c3pO4 wrote:
NinerFan wrote:
If you trust what the law schools say,


Are you serious? Do you know anything about reporting of law school employment stats?

This, also size isn't really a good indicator of how "good" a law firm is.

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Doritos
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby Doritos » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:47 pm

NinerFan wrote:If you trust what the law schools say


No one here does

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NinerFan
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Re: How bad is the legal job market?

Postby NinerFan » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:55 pm

I don't think a 2/3 lawfirm/clerkship number is too far-fetched. If you think these numbers are off, please feel free to cite to the contrary. I know no one here trusts law schools, but there's a limit to how far they can warp the numbers. That still leaves 1/3 of people in the non-firm/clerkship column, and we all know that given the way things are, it's highly unlikely they're all in PI or Govt.

And I know size isn't a tell-all, but you can generalize from it. A 1-10 person firm is usually not going to be an elite boutique.




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