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Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:02 am
by Anonymous User
I know I may be jumping the gun on this slightly, but always good to think ahead, right?

Anyway, I have a SA job lined up at a fairly large IP Boutique with market pay in the same city I am going to school. When school kicks back into gear next fall (assuming I get a full time offer), is it appropriate for me to ask the firm if I can stay on part-time through the fall/spring? When are these kinds of arrangements typically made? What would a reasonable hourly rate be? (I can't imagine it would be anywhere near what the summer pay is)

Whether or not there is work to be done will vary from firm to firm, but who should be the one (me or the firm) to ask the other about part time work? Is it common for 3Ls to stay on part time with their firms through their last year of school, or do they not want to see you again until after you have passed the BAR?

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:04 am
by Renzo
Anonymous User wrote:I know I may be jumping the gun on this slightly, but always good to think ahead, right?

Anyway, I have a SA job lined up at a fairly large IP Boutique with market pay in the same city I am going to school. When school kicks back into gear next fall (assuming I get a full time offer), is it appropriate for me to ask the firm if I can stay on part-time through the fall/spring? When are these kinds of arrangements typically made? What would a reasonable hourly rate be? (I can't imagine it would be anywhere near what the summer pay is)

Whether or not there is work to be done will vary from firm to firm, but who should be the one (me or the firm) to ask the other about part time work? Is it common for 3Ls to stay on part time with their firms through their last year of school, or do they not want to see you again until after you have passed the BAR?


It's almost unheard of, and you should neither ask nor expect it. As a summer, you (and everyone else, don't take it personally) are a huge fucking waste of salary. They pay you over the summer so that you'll come back after the bar, not because you are contributing any real value.

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:16 am
by Geist13
yeah no way they will pay you the associate hourly equivalent for part time. Lots of people work at firms during the year, but its for like $12-15 an hour at small shops in town, often doing pretty menial work.

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:37 am
by goodolgil
It at least used to happen, because I remember reading that Glenn Greenwald worked at Wachtell during his third year at NYU after summering there and being surprised by it. The title was "pre-Bar Associate."

No idea if these positions still exist.

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:46 am
by Anonymous User
Holy shit, I am in a similar position as you. IP ftw!
The hourly pay will be below $160,000/2000hr=$80/hr. Should be at least half of that though.
I am not a 3L... maybe you will get moar than me.
Care to shed light on your background? School range, undergrad/grad major, school rank, pat bar?

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:49 am
by dood
Anonymous User wrote:I know I may be jumping the gun on this slightly, but always good to think ahead, right?

Anyway, I have a SA job lined up at a fairly large IP Boutique with market pay in the same city I am going to school. When school kicks back into gear next fall (assuming I get a full time offer), is it appropriate for me to ask the firm if I can stay on part-time through the fall/spring? When are these kinds of arrangements typically made? What would a reasonable hourly rate be? (I can't imagine it would be anywhere near what the summer pay is)

Whether or not there is work to be done will vary from firm to firm, but who should be the one (me or the firm) to ask the other about part time work? Is it common for 3Ls to stay on part time with their firms through their last year of school, or do they not want to see you again until after you have passed the BAR?


first, renzo is right...u shouldnt expect it b/c its uncommon.

that being said...both of the firms that i SAd for asked me to stay on part-time at $50/hr; expected to work 20 hours minimum. hth.

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:00 am
by Emu Flu
That type of arrangement is frequent in patent prosecution, but I've never heard of anyone doing it in litigation.

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:14 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:Holy shit, I am in a similar position as you. IP ftw!
The hourly pay will be below $160,000/2000hr=$80/hr. Should be at least half of that though.
I am not a 3L... maybe you will get moar than me.
Care to shed light on your background? School range, undergrad/grad major, school rank, pat bar?


I am the guy who posted this. I concur with the understanding that it will be mostly prosecution (if not all) as spoken by others.
Also, ~$50/hr quoted by dood is tcr.

I thought ABA capped part time work at 20/hrs max?
(ABA says work <= 20 hrs/wk) && (your firm says >20 hrs/wk) == (/) empty set
(ABA cap) && (your firm says >= 20 hrs/wk) = 20 hrs/wk

Someone take a guess at my background.

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:16 am
by headandshoulderos
Anonymous User wrote:
Someone take a guess at my background.


Nerd

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:36 am
by rayiner
It's uncommon, but I wouldn't say it's unheard of. I've heard more than one story of Wachtell having someone work part-time, and someone in my class is working for her firm (not patent prosecution) part-time during the school year.

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:23 am
by Sup Kid
It's definitely uncommon (and rather than ask I would see if the firm brings it up), but I have heard of a couple of people doing it on the transactional-side in V50 firms in NYC. It tends to be on an as-needed basis, for example, if they need associates to do a quick turnover of due diligence on a deal (think large-scale securitization deals or pooling of hundreds of mortgages) and they don't have enough young associates or contract attorneys to get it done in a short timeframe. Rather than bringing in some random attorney off Craigslist, they give the work to their summer associates who they already know and sort of trust. From what I've heard, ~$50/hour sounds about right, but it's obviously a rare occurrence (nowhere near a consistent 20 hours/week).

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:14 am
by spondee
I don't see why you shouldn't feel free to askā€”just wait until you receive the full-time offer before you do.

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:36 am
by sky7
For patent prosecution?

I don't see why not. It's called being a part-time patent agent, or technical specialist. I know quite a few people who do it.

For anything other than patent prosecution, see what everyone else was saying.

I guess EE.

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:54 am
by Anonymous User
sky7 wrote:I guess EE.


180 TCR!

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:08 am
by sky7
Scene from a patent law class:

Professor: "Who here is an electrical engineer?"

---multiple hands raised in the class---

Professor: "Ah, yes... the 'aristocracy'...."

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:41 pm
by Anonymous User
OP here. Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I'll play it soft and either 1) wait for them to mention something about it to me, or 2) ask some associates while I'm there if they have seen this happen before, to know if its worth bringing up.

Per request:
Top 20% at T2
Background is BME, and I have an M.S.
2 years full time engineering WE
I'm working PT with in-house counsel at a medium-size Pharma Co. doing substantive work
Was going to sit for Patent Bar this fall, but when I got the offer for SA, an associate recommend I wait until I get the FT offer before proceeding. He told me the firm will pay for my review course and all exam fees, and that I can take it any time after that.

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:14 pm
by Anonymous User
At my IP firm this was common in the old days, less so now ITE.

For those who stayed or worked during the year, it was $50/hr. If nothing else, it seemed (for the people I know that did it, I didn't) to help them be more a part of the firm obviously than the people who pack up and go home for 14 months. I have no idea if this translated to tangible benefits down the road.

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:18 pm
by Anonymous User
friend did this at v5 in m&a...stayed in practice group and is still there now as an associate...person was an evening student, so not sure if they were able to leverage that aspect

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:22 pm
by headandshoulderos
you can do this at small/mid size firms too. they actually get value so you can also get 40-50 bucks an hour.

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:44 pm
by Renzo
rayiner wrote:It's uncommon, but I wouldn't say it's unheard of. I've heard more than one story of Wachtell having someone work part-time, and someone in my class is working for her firm (not patent prosecution) part-time during the school year.



Maybe I should have said, "unheard of since 2007." But otherwise, I stand by it. Although, if it's going to happen, it's going to happen for those of you folks doing patent prosecution, since hiring patent agents is a real thing that firms would do.

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:49 pm
by IAFG
Renzo wrote:
rayiner wrote:It's uncommon, but I wouldn't say it's unheard of. I've heard more than one story of Wachtell having someone work part-time, and someone in my class is working for her firm (not patent prosecution) part-time during the school year.



Maybe I should have said, "unheard of since 2007." But otherwise, I stand by it. Although, if it's going to happen, it's going to happen for those of you folks doing patent prosecution, since hiring patent agents is a real thing that firms would do.

I know two people personally who did it after 2007. The only way to know if they'll let you is to ask. No, you shouldn't expect it. To tell someone to not even ask is just silly.

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:54 pm
by Renzo
IAFG wrote:
Renzo wrote:
rayiner wrote:It's uncommon, but I wouldn't say it's unheard of. I've heard more than one story of Wachtell having someone work part-time, and someone in my class is working for her firm (not patent prosecution) part-time during the school year.



Maybe I should have said, "unheard of since 2007." But otherwise, I stand by it. Although, if it's going to happen, it's going to happen for those of you folks doing patent prosecution, since hiring patent agents is a real thing that firms would do.

I know two people personally who did it after 2007. The only way to know if they'll let you is to ask. No, you shouldn't expect it. To tell someone to not even ask is just silly.



You really know two people who worked in non-patent, market paying firms as 3L's? I have a hard time swallowing that. Now, if you're talking about mid-market firms, oh, then hell yeah--I'm working at one as 3L; that's common.

In any case, I stand by "don't ask" as well. I'd be willing to bet that if it's an option, they'll let him know.

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:57 pm
by IAFG
Renzo wrote:

You really know two people who worked in non-patent, market paying firms as 3L's?
Yes.

Renzo wrote: I have a hard time swallowing that.

That's what she said.

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:08 pm
by Renzo
IAFG wrote:
Renzo wrote:

You really know two people who worked in non-patent, market paying firms as 3L's?
Yes.

Renzo wrote: I have a hard time swallowing that.

That's what she said.



Fair enough. Although I am still inclined to think that it is more indicative of how luck and/or brilliant your acquaintances are, rather than the pervasiveness of term-time big law jobs.

Oh, and well played.

Re: Staying on Part-Time after SA?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:17 pm
by phonepro
This seems absolutely ridiculous if its a firm like Sullivan & Cromwell, Davis Polk, Kirkland....etc etc etc...

But if it is a smaller boutique firm, it is not ridiculous at all. They will probably be utilizing your much more than a biglaw firm, and they may appreciate your willingness to continue working.