Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:40 am

ITT: People who don't understand Susman

(1) Every year they interview / make offers people who don't attend schools they do OCI at. Firms like W&C, Susman, and Wachtell are big enough for law students (especially over-eager ones on message boards like this) to have heard of and be impressed by but not big enough to do large scale OCI recruiting. (I did callbacks at two of the three but only one came to my school's OCI).

(2) Susman is a Texas firm. Their offices outside of texas each have something like << 10 attorneys. If you can't sell a texas desire or sneak into one of their satellite offices, your creds are irrelevant.

(3) Summering at Susman is usually a 4-week program, and you don't get hired back without first getting a clerkship.

(4) Seriously, no set of paper creds can get you any job. At some point the correlation between paper creds and ability becomes strong, because a person simply isn't likely to get through life slinging fey diplomas and SCOTUS clerkships without a combination of brains and people skills. But it's not a resume arms race, and firms like Susman and the like routinely hire "merely" impressive people and reject those with diamond-studded resumes. It's like any other job, they take the people they like who they think will excel and stick around - there's just a much higher level of competition given the supply/demand equation.

(5) Susman's profits come from high-risk, high-profile plaintiff's work. It's materially different than what most biglaw firms do. Bonuses are quite variable, but surprise-surprise: they talk about them more when things go well. Theirs is a practice that attracts... particular egos, even considering the high baseline in the legal profession as a whole. That's why they brag about money and culture and shit on their website. It's hardly all puffery, but keep in mind that they're selling an image.

keg411
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby keg411 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:12 pm

Yeah, I was going to say Susman is pretty specialized and you have to know you want to do plaintiff's work (there is a whole other thread on doing plaintiff work and it's definitely different and requires different things than traditional BigLaw). Even at more typical top BigLaw specialized lit shops like Boies have a mix of plaintiff and defense work. And WLRK is for those who want to do M&A/Corporate work.

The advantages places like Cravath, S&C, Skadden, DPW and the rest of the V10 provide is that their practices are way more diverse. The downside is that you aren't going to get the same kind of bonuses or $$$$ that you will at the more specialized firms, but law students are 1) generally risk adverse and 2) 2L's generally have no clue what they want to do after law school and the more specialized firms make them pick and commit strongly to their practice area during OCI (though technically Cravath makes you do that as well).

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:51 pm

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If you want to make money you go to Susman. And this is without going into the short SIX YEAR partnership track.


Just do Susman bro. It's no big deal, guys at my high school did it all the time.


I love how TLSers assume their 1/100,000 chance at Susman is really something like 1/10.

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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:(2) Susman is a Texas firm. Their offices outside of texas each have something like << 10 attorneys. If you can't sell a texas desire or sneak into one of their satellite offices, your creds are irrelevant.


That is actually not true. Susman know that they're a unique firm and that people who aren't receptive to Texas will still come down there to work. Its more important to show that you want to work in that high stakes early responsibility environment more so than proving you want to work in Texas.

Selling yourself as a committed commercial litigator who wants to get early responsibility, handle depositions on your own as a first year, argue motions before court, etc. is more important than selling yourself as a geographic fit.

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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby 005618502 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:01 pm

Looking around at Susman's profile, many of the attorneys in the houston office are from University of Houston School of Law..... Interesting

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5ky
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby 5ky » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:54 pm

per ATL, Skadden has matched Cravath.

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Big Shrimpin » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:57 pm

5ky wrote:per ATL, Skadden has matched Cravath.


:twisted:

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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:00 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:Looking around at Susman's profile, many of the attorneys in the houston office are from University of Houston School of Law..... Interesting


I also noticed that most of the female attorney are attractive compared to the general female attorney population....interesting 8)

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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby xcountryjunkie » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:Looking around at Susman's profile, many of the attorneys in the houston office are from University of Houston School of Law..... Interesting


I also noticed that most of the female attorney are attractive compared to the general female attorney population....interesting 8)


I'm not sure perving is a legitimate use of the anon function.

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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby quakeroats » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:Looking around at Susman's profile, many of the attorneys in the houston office are from University of Houston School of Law..... Interesting


I also noticed that most of the female attorney are attractive compared to the general female attorney population....interesting 8)


Just in case you weren't hinting at this:

So who's the ideal fit?
Susman: Someone who's clerked at the Supreme Court, is brilliant, and has theatrical presence. There's a theatrical aspect to trial work. We've also had phenomenal female lawyers who have great personality, are smart, and are pleasant to look at.

Aren't you afraid some might find that last comment a bit sexist?
Susman: You can ask anyone who has ever worked with me or at SG about whether we are [sexist], and I'm sure they will say no. I do think that any firm that tries jury cases needs a group of lawyers who have courtroom--i.e., theatrical--presence. A person's appearance, male or female, contributes to their presence.
http://thecareerist.typepad.com/thecare ... an-qa.html

005618502
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby 005618502 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:Looking around at Susman's profile, many of the attorneys in the houston office are from University of Houston School of Law..... Interesting


I also noticed that most of the female attorney are attractive compared to the general female attorney population....interesting 8)


Eh, I saw one that was above average. I love that they take looks into consideration. I think most litigation firms should do this. People need to learn to take care of their body. Go to the gym, eat healthy, cardio cardio cardio.... but thats neither here nor there. Back to this threads topic....

Wow I want to work at Susman someday, to bad its so unlikely lol
Last edited by 005618502 on Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:44 pm

skadden matched. no surprise.

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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:05 pm

SPOTTED: Cravath and Skadden associates leaving their offices to join the #Occupy movement.
UP NEXT: Is your home earthquake-ready? Sources indicate that K&E's bonuses will SHATTER THE MARKET with such force that there will be a corresponding physical manifestation.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Old Gregg
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Old Gregg » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:05 pm

The advantages places like Cravath, S&C, Skadden, DPW and the rest of the V10 provide is that their practices are way more diverse.


Not at all. With the exception of Cravath and maybe Skadden, all of the above firms are so concentrated in corporate that a genuine hit to corporate might well be a genuine hit to the firm.

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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:39 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
The advantages places like Cravath, S&C, Skadden, DPW and the rest of the V10 provide is that their practices are way more diverse.


Not at all. With the exception of Cravath and maybe Skadden, all of the above firms are so concentrated in corporate that a genuine hit to corporate might well be a genuine hit to the firm.


This is offset by the fact that these firms are so good at corporate work that they will never run out of business unless the entire financial system collapses. It's the corporate departments of firms OUTSIDE the V10 that take the biggest hits during recessions.

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Old Gregg
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Old Gregg » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:45 pm

This is offset by the fact that these firms are so good at corporate work that they will never run out of business unless the entire financial system collapses. It's the corporate departments of firms OUTSIDE the V10 that take the biggest hits during recessions.


If anything, it's the opposite. V10s that focus on mega deals quickly find that they dry up in a bad economy because credit crunches make financing pretty hard to find on that scale.

But you don't really know how dead Cravath, Skadden, S&C, DPW, etc. were during late 2008, so I'll let you continue to post like you know what you're talking about.

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Bronte
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Bronte » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:46 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
This is offset by the fact that these firms are so good at corporate work that they will never run out of business unless the entire financial system collapses. It's the corporate departments of firms OUTSIDE the V10 that take the biggest hits during recessions.


If anything, it's the opposite. V10s that focus on mega deals quickly find that they dry up in a bad economy because credit crunches make financing pretty hard to find on that scale.

But you don't really know how dead Cravath, Skadden, S&C, DPW, etc. were during late 2008, so I'll let you continue to post like you know what you're talking about.


Which associate class are you in?

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:48 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
This is offset by the fact that these firms are so good at corporate work that they will never run out of business unless the entire financial system collapses. It's the corporate departments of firms OUTSIDE the V10 that take the biggest hits during recessions.


If anything, it's the opposite. V10s that focus on mega deals quickly find that they dry up in a bad economy because credit crunches make financing pretty hard to find on that scale.

But you don't really know how dead Cravath, Skadden, S&C, DPW, etc. were during late 2008, so I'll let you continue to post like you know what you're talking about.


100% dead wrong. If you knew anything about the study of corporate law at all, you'd know that these firms DO NOT only do mega deals. A lot of the deals in corporate law textbooks are medium-sized corporate mergers conducted with the assistance of firms like Skadden and WLRK. The fact of the matter is that EVERYONE wants top corporate law firms to work on their matters. The only reason non-V10 firms get work is because V10s have to literally turn down a shitload of work during good times (and usually during mildly bad times too). PPP at most of the V10 firms barely moved, even during 2008.
Last edited by Julio_El_Chavo on Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Old Gregg
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Old Gregg » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:48 pm

Bronte wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
This is offset by the fact that these firms are so good at corporate work that they will never run out of business unless the entire financial system collapses. It's the corporate departments of firms OUTSIDE the V10 that take the biggest hits during recessions.


If anything, it's the opposite. V10s that focus on mega deals quickly find that they dry up in a bad economy because credit crunches make financing pretty hard to find on that scale.

But you don't really know how dead Cravath, Skadden, S&C, DPW, etc. were during late 2008, so I'll let you continue to post like you know what you're talking about.


Which associate class are you in?


Don't want to out myself any further. But if you know anyone who was at these firms during that time period, I'm sure they'll confirm.

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Old Gregg
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Old Gregg » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:51 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
This is offset by the fact that these firms are so good at corporate work that they will never run out of business unless the entire financial system collapses. It's the corporate departments of firms OUTSIDE the V10 that take the biggest hits during recessions.


If anything, it's the opposite. V10s that focus on mega deals quickly find that they dry up in a bad economy because credit crunches make financing pretty hard to find on that scale.

But you don't really know how dead Cravath, Skadden, S&C, DPW, etc. were during late 2008, so I'll let you continue to post like you know what you're talking about.


100% dead wrong. If you knew anything about the study of corporate law at all, you'd know that these firms DO NOT only do mega deals. A lot of the deals in corporate law textbooks are medium-sized corporate mergers conducted with the assistance of firms like Skadden and WLRK. The fact of the matter is that EVERYONE wants top corporate law firms to work on their matters. The only reason non-V10 firms get work is because V10s have to literally turn down a shitload of work during good times (and usually during mildly bad times too). PPP at most of the V10 firms barely moved, even during 2008.


Key word was "focus." Yes, these firms do smaller deals, but they aren't their bread and butter, and they don't reap the most fees from them.

Then again, back in 2008, deals even on a smaller scale just weren't happening, so your point really is moot.

You really have no idea how dead these places were after Lehman Bros. collapsed. Kindly GTFO please.

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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Bronte » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:55 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:Don't want to out myself any further. But if you know anyone who was at these firms during that time period, I'm sure they'll confirm.


If you're just speaking from an observer's roll, I think a lot of people here have been observing the market since the start of the crisis. Obviously, corporate work slowed significantly during the crisis, but as far as I know most of the V10s and their associates came out relatively unscathed, with the exception of Latham and maybe others that I'm not aware of. Did any other V10s beside Latham have serious layoffs? I know Skadden did the "Sidebar" thing.

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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Old Gregg » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:59 pm

Bronte wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:Don't want to out myself any further. But if you know anyone who was at these firms during that time period, I'm sure they'll confirm.


If you're just speaking from an observer's roll, I think a lot of people here have been observing the market since the start of the crisis. Obviously, corporate work slowed significantly during the crisis, but as far as I know most of the V10s and their associates came out relatively unscathed, with the exception of Latham and maybe others that I'm not aware of. Did any other V10s beside Latham have serious layoffs? I know Skadden did the "Sidebar" thing.


All of the V10 except for Wachtell stealthed. Skadden had the sidebar, Cravath deferred twice over, Weil is still deferred for the class of 2011, Simpson offered an "optional" deferral, Covington had a salary freeze. Those are just what I remember.

The V10 was largely better off than the rest of the V100, but 2008 was definitely bad times even for the V10.

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5ky
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby 5ky » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:02 pm

[off topic]
Last edited by 5ky on Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby rayiner » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:04 pm

Skadden, etc, were pretty dead during the downturn, but if you look at the revenue numbers, they managed to keep a reasonable stream of smaller deals going. In a recession, only the most lucrative and pressing deals tend to go through, so there is a flight to quality. The places that were really dead were the lower V50s, like Allen & Overy, Orrick, etc. I'm talking months with associates just sitting around on the internet.

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Bronte
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Bronte » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:04 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:All of the V10 except for Wachtell stealthed. Skadden had the sidebar, Cravath deferred twice over, Weil is still deferred for the class of 2011, Simpson offered an "optional" deferral, Covington had a salary freeze. Those are just what I remember.

The V10 was largely better off than the rest of the V100, but 2008 was definitely bad times even for the V10.


Yeah. Another financial crisis would be good for nobody, except maybe those in restructuring divisions.




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