Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

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IAFG
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby IAFG » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:31 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:You guys think Boies works their associates more than wachtell?

What about Susman?

Which is harder to get Susman or W&C? I have a buddy with a SA at W&C this summer, he is pretty pumped. But no they dont do bonuses on top of their above market salary. First years get 180,000 which easily makes up for the measily bonuses we have been mentioning

At some point though the differential stops mattering. By the time you hit the V10 or the elite boutiques, you have already given up on work-life balance. There isn't family, or free time, or sleep; it's just figuring out which is the least likely to drive you insane before you can lateral out.

I really doubt that the hours at Cadwalader are lighter than the hours at Cleary. Silly distinction is silly.

kaiser
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby kaiser » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:32 pm

IAFG wrote:
LawIdiot86 wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:You guys think Boies works their associates more than wachtell?

What about Susman?

Which is harder to get Susman or W&C? I have a buddy with a SA at W&C this summer, he is pretty pumped. But no they dont do bonuses on top of their above market salary. First years get 180,000 which easily makes up for the measily bonuses we have been mentioning

At some point though the differential stops mattering. By the time you hit the V10 or the elite boutiques, you have already given up on work-life balance. There isn't family, or free time, or sleep; it's just figuring out which is the least likely to drive you insane before you can lateral out.

I really doubt that the hours at Cadwalader are lighter than the hours at Cleary. Silly distinction is silly.


+1

Anonymous User
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:41 pm

Hours suck everywhere. Might as well go to a firm that ties bonus to billables, like K&E.

turbotong
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby turbotong » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:10 pm


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romothesavior
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby romothesavior » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:21 pm

turbotong wrote:http://money.cnn.com/2011/11/29/news/economy/wall_street_pay/index.htm?iid=HP_LN
Better than salary cuts in finance.

Thank god for those in the financial sector. Probably the only field more despised by the general public than us.

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Veyron
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Veyron » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:23 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:You guys think Boies works their associates more than wachtell?

What about Susman?

Which is harder to get Susman or W&C? I have a buddy with a SA at W&C this summer, he is pretty pumped. But no they dont do bonuses on top of their above market salary. First years get 180,000 which easily makes up for the measily bonuses we have been mentioning


Probably Susman is a bit harder since they hire so few people. You need COA level credentials for both but Susman's managing partner has said that the firm is really more interested in SCOTUS clerks who are personable, attractive (seriously), and can argue well in court.

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rayiner
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby rayiner » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:47 pm

romothesavior wrote:
turbotong wrote:http://money.cnn.com/2011/11/29/news/economy/wall_street_pay/index.htm?iid=HP_LN
Better than salary cuts in finance.

Thank god for those in the financial sector. Probably the only field more despised by the general public than us.


The last 10 years have been great for the image of lawyers. Bankers, CEOs, and consultants (downsizing, etc) are all now more hated than lawyers.

headandshoulderos
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby headandshoulderos » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:54 pm

rayiner wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
turbotong wrote:http://money.cnn.com/2011/11/29/news/economy/wall_street_pay/index.htm?iid=HP_LN
Better than salary cuts in finance.

Thank god for those in the financial sector. Probably the only field more despised by the general public than us.


The last 10 years have been great for the image of lawyers. Bankers, CEOs, and consultants (downsizing, etc) are all now more hated than lawyers.


Can't wait for the new consultants show on showtime.

005618502
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby 005618502 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:00 pm

LawIdiot86 wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:You guys think Boies works their associates more than wachtell?

What about Susman?

Which is harder to get Susman or W&C? I have a buddy with a SA at W&C this summer, he is pretty pumped. But no they dont do bonuses on top of their above market salary. First years get 180,000 which easily makes up for the measily bonuses we have been mentioning

At some point though the differential stops mattering. By the time you hit the V10 or the elite boutiques, you have already given up on work-life balance. There isn't family, or free time, or sleep; it's just figuring out which is the least likely to drive you insane before you can lateral out.


I heard the hours at W&C are not that intense? This could be completely wrong, but has anyone heard different from someone there? I heard associates will work 50-60 hours a week. In my mind that isn't terrible.

What do K&E bounses range?

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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:17 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:
What do K&E bounses range?


K&E bonuses range from MARKET SHATTERING to MARKET SHATTERING

(google "xoxo kirklandshatters")

But actually -- usually 1.5-2.5x Cravath scale, on average IIRC

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:
What do K&E bounses range?


K&E bonuses range from MARKET SHATTERING to MARKET SHATTERING

(google "xoxo kirklandshatters")

But actually -- usually 1.5-2.5x Cravath scale, on average IIRC


Wasn't it closer to 2-3x Cravath last year? But I don't think they came back over with spring bonuses.

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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:24 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:
What do K&E bounses range?


K&E bonuses range from MARKET SHATTERING to MARKET SHATTERING

(google "xoxo kirklandshatters")

But actually -- usually 1.5-2.5x Cravath scale, on average IIRC


Wasn't it closer to 2-3x Cravath last year? But I don't think they came back over with spring bonuses.


"1st year, 1900 hours (over 9 months), $18k."
"Meh. 2000 hours, 150% Cravath. Was hoping for more honestly, but I guess it's hard to complain."
"DC Office, Class of 2008, 2050 hours - with class, just over $15k, aka ~150% of Cravath. Meh, it is ok I guess. But didn't live up to the hype of the partners when on their associate morale tour."
"~2400 hours, somewhat over 250% Cravath."
"Over 2300 hours, 250% Cravath"
"Some of us who worked 2600+ hours, especially if on a trial (or BP), got almost 4x market."
"With class. 2300 hours. 2.2X Cravath."
"35,000. 2600+ hours. Class 2008"
"Class of 2007: 2000 hrs = $20,000; 2250 hrs = $27,500; 2450 hrs = $33,500"

Looked back through some old stuff -- small sample size, but looks like you're generally right.

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Borhas
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Borhas » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:18 pm

they should unionize

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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:31 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:You guys think Boies works their associates more than wachtell?

What about Susman?

Which is harder to get Susman or W&C? I have a buddy with a SA at W&C this summer, he is pretty pumped. But no they dont do bonuses on top of their above market salary. First years get 180,000 which easily makes up for the measily bonuses we have been mentioning


If you look at size, Susman is smaller (around 30 associates) compared to W&C (which has more than 100 associates), thus one could argue that makes it harder to get. But that doesn't take into account the desirability of the Susman compared to W&C when it comes to top flight candidates. I personally don't know. I think both are super hard to get and probably neither is substantially more difficult.


However in terms of salary, Susman is the clear run away winner. Here is their pay breakdown: http://www.susmangodfrey.com/Careers/Attorneys/#Pane3

For 2010 if you were a first year associate you got: 160k base + $5k signing bonus + $5k vacation bonus + $45-47,500 bonus.

That comes to $215k in terms of salary and regular bonuses. That also doesn't take into account the $50k clerkship bonus which is also given to every first year since every first year associate who is hired must have completed a federal clerkship. So as a first year your looking at $265k all-in when it comes to compensation.

I believe in terms of actual dollars that is more than Wachtell is currently paying to first year associates. And the gap becomes mammoth if your working in Susman TX offices when you factor in COL. I spoke to Susman first year associate while interviewing for a SA position and he said that after your first year working at Susman TX, you can buy a house just based on the bonuses you receive.

If you want to make money you go to Susman. And this is without going into the short SIX YEAR partnership track.

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Veyron
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Veyron » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:You guys think Boies works their associates more than wachtell?

What about Susman?

Which is harder to get Susman or W&C? I have a buddy with a SA at W&C this summer, he is pretty pumped. But no they dont do bonuses on top of their above market salary. First years get 180,000 which easily makes up for the measily bonuses we have been mentioning


If you look at size, Susman is smaller (around 30 associates) compared to W&C (which has more than 100 associates), thus one could argue that makes it harder to get. But that doesn't take into account the desirability of the Susman compared to W&C when it comes to top flight candidates. I personally don't know. I think both are super hard to get and probably neither is substantially more difficult.


However in terms of salary, Susman is the clear run away winner. Here is their pay breakdown: http://www.susmangodfrey.com/Careers/Attorneys/#Pane3

For 2010 if you were a first year associate you got: 160k base + $5k signing bonus + $5k vacation bonus + $45-47,500 bonus.

That comes to $215k in terms of salary and regular bonuses. That also doesn't take into account the $50k clerkship bonus which is also given to every first year since every first year associate who is hired must have completed a federal clerkship. So as a first year your looking at $265k all-in when it comes to compensation.

I believe in terms of actual dollars that is more than Wachtell is currently paying to first year associates. And the gap becomes mammoth if your working in Susman TX offices when you factor in COL. I spoke to Susman first year associate while interviewing for a SA position and he said that after your first year working at Susman TX, you can buy a house just based on the bonuses you receive.

If you want to make money you go to Susman. And this is without going into the short SIX YEAR partnership track.


I assume that they pay a higher bonus to SCOTUS clerks though, do they not?

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rayiner
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby rayiner » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:If you want to make money you go to Susman. And this is without going into the short SIX YEAR partnership track.


Just do Susman bro. It's no big deal, guys at my high school did it all the time.

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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:24 am

Veyron wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:You guys think Boies works their associates more than wachtell?

What about Susman?

Which is harder to get Susman or W&C? I have a buddy with a SA at W&C this summer, he is pretty pumped. But no they dont do bonuses on top of their above market salary. First years get 180,000 which easily makes up for the measily bonuses we have been mentioning


If you look at size, Susman is smaller (around 30 associates) compared to W&C (which has more than 100 associates), thus one could argue that makes it harder to get. But that doesn't take into account the desirability of the Susman compared to W&C when it comes to top flight candidates. I personally don't know. I think both are super hard to get and probably neither is substantially more difficult.


However in terms of salary, Susman is the clear run away winner. Here is their pay breakdown: http://www.susmangodfrey.com/Careers/Attorneys/#Pane3

For 2010 if you were a first year associate you got: 160k base + $5k signing bonus + $5k vacation bonus + $45-47,500 bonus.

That comes to $215k in terms of salary and regular bonuses. That also doesn't take into account the $50k clerkship bonus which is also given to every first year since every first year associate who is hired must have completed a federal clerkship. So as a first year your looking at $265k all-in when it comes to compensation.

I believe in terms of actual dollars that is more than Wachtell is currently paying to first year associates. And the gap becomes mammoth if your working in Susman TX offices when you factor in COL. I spoke to Susman first year associate while interviewing for a SA position and he said that after your first year working at Susman TX, you can buy a house just based on the bonuses you receive.

If you want to make money you go to Susman. And this is without going into the short SIX YEAR partnership track.


I assume that they pay a higher bonus to SCOTUS clerks though, do they not?


unusually the website says they only pay 125k for scotus....which is half what is the market rate

I'm gonna assume that they don't feel the need to pay more to still get scotus clerk attention. Wachtell for example doesn't pay any clerkship bonus simply because they know they pay huge bonuses anyway.

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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:25 am

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If you want to make money you go to Susman. And this is without going into the short SIX YEAR partnership track.


Just do Susman bro. It's no big deal, guys at my high school did it all the time.


Obviously its tough to get but alot of Cravath folks could be competitive if they weren't wed the idea of slaving in NYC at a name institution.

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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby imchuckbass58 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:30 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Obviously its tough to get but alot of Cravath folks could be competitive if they weren't wed the idea of slaving in NYC at a name institution.


No they would not.

I think you (1) seriously overestimate Cravath's selectivity (at CCN top third gives you a good shot - they've been known to dip down around median), and (2) seriously underestimate how selective Susman is (top 5% + LR at HYSCCN and Texas to stand a shot, even then it's dicey. And COA clerkship is a virtual requirement for a full-time offer).

BeenDidThat
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby BeenDidThat » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:35 am

Borhas wrote:they should unionize


Well played, sir. Well played.

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rayiner
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby rayiner » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:39 am

imchuckbass58 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Obviously its tough to get but alot of Cravath folks could be competitive if they weren't wed the idea of slaving in NYC at a name institution.


No they would not.

I think you (1) seriously overestimate Cravath's selectivity (at CCN top third gives you a good shot - they've been known to dip down around median), and (2) seriously underestimate how selective Susman is (top 5% + LR at HYSCCN and Texas to stand a shot, even then it's dicey. And COA clerkship is a virtual requirement for a full-time offer).


+1.

The people with Susman stats who want corporate rather than litigation are working at Wachtell. And unlike Cravath, which is almost an auto-offer from top 10% + LR at HYSCCN, there are no credentials sufficient by themselves to get a Susman offer.

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Veyron
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby Veyron » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:53 am

rayiner wrote:
imchuckbass58 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Obviously its tough to get but alot of Cravath folks could be competitive if they weren't wed the idea of slaving in NYC at a name institution.


No they would not.

I think you (1) seriously overestimate Cravath's selectivity (at CCN top third gives you a good shot - they've been known to dip down around median), and (2) seriously underestimate how selective Susman is (top 5% + LR at HYSCCN and Texas to stand a shot, even then it's dicey. And COA clerkship is a virtual requirement for a full-time offer).


+1.

The people with Susman stats who want corporate rather than litigation are working at Wachtell. And unlike Cravath, which is almost an auto-offer from top 10% + LR at HYSCCN, there are no credentials sufficient by themselves to get a Susman offer.


IDK man Fay diploma --> Roberts clerk would proly do it :D

005618502
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby 005618502 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:38 am

imchuckbass58 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Obviously its tough to get but alot of Cravath folks could be competitive if they weren't wed the idea of slaving in NYC at a name institution.


No they would not.

I think you (1) seriously overestimate Cravath's selectivity (at CCN top third gives you a good shot - they've been known to dip down around median), and (2) seriously underestimate how selective Susman is (top 5% + LR at HYSCCN and Texas to stand a shot, even then it's dicey. And COA clerkship is a virtual requirement for a full-time offer).


Its annoying that they interview at Texas for their TX offices but not UVA/Georgetown for their DC office. If I had my pick I would take one of their TX offices in a heartbeat. That kind of income with that COL would be awesome

xcountryjunkie
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby xcountryjunkie » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:43 am

Susman doesn't have a DC office. They're in Houston, Dallas, Seattle, LA, & NY.

005618502
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Re: Cravath SHATTERS THE MARKET!

Postby 005618502 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:47 am

xcountryjunkie wrote:Susman doesn't have a DC office. They're in Houston, Dallas, Seattle, LA, & NY.


That would be a good reason then lol




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