The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

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r6_philly
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:49 pm

piccolittle wrote:
It may be helpful, but I guess tone doesn't carry well over email. What I got from it was this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZ ... re=related


I read it as neutral. Not nice, not rude. Matter of fact, constructive criticism. I supposed they could have made an effort make the recipient feel more pleasant, but I don't think there was an obligation to do so. I have a collection of firm letters with the same business tone, no offense taken.

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piccolittle
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby piccolittle » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:54 pm

r6_philly wrote:I read it as neutral. Not nice, not rude. Matter of fact, constructive criticism. I supposed they could have made an effort make the recipient feel more pleasant, but I don't think there was an obligation to do so. I have a collection of firm letters with the same business tone, no offense taken.

The more I read it, the more I see where you are coming from. I think what gets me is the "none of them expressed an interest in interviewing you" part... just seems unnecessary if trying primarily to be informative or helpful.

But yeah, I get you, even if it's not the best worded thing to send to a job-seeking law student ITE.

r6_philly
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:59 pm

piccolittle wrote:The more I read it, the more I see where you are coming from. I think what gets me is the "none of them expressed an interest in interviewing you" part... just seems unnecessary if trying primarily to be informative or helpful.

But yeah, I get you, even if it's not the best worded thing to send to a job-seeking law student ITE.


I suppose you can soften it by saying "We are not interested in interviewing you"? lol it's going to be awkward anyway unless you sugarcoat it. But if you do, you can't follow by saying the real reason. I supposed you can say "It does not seem like you are a perfect fit for our office and our work" or "while you are an exceptional candidate, we regret that you don't seem to be a great fit for our office", but then you lose the constructive weight because the employ would be saying "it's not you, it's me." Basically, it is you, and you should change it. I just don't see a nice way of saying that without affecting the real meaning.

I teach and I am a parent. Maybe that's why I don't have a problem with it. :mrgreen: I am harsher to my students and kids at times.

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ilovesf
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby ilovesf » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:02 pm

I don't think there's anything wrong with giving constructive advice. You could say something like "unfortunately we have decided not to interview you. As a PI organization, we seek candidates who have a proven dedication to PI with PI experience, and we feel as though you have not expressed this in your application. We recommend in the future that to be a successful candidate for a PI org, you highlight your desires to work for a PI org and your past experience in the field." or something like that

r6_philly
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:16 pm

ilovesf wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with giving constructive advice. You could say something like "unfortunately we have decided not to interview you. As a PI organization, we seek candidates who have a proven dedication to PI with PI experience, and we feel as though you have not expressed this in your application. We recommend in the future that to be a successful candidate for a PI org, you highlight your desires to work for a PI org and your past experience in the field." or something like that


I don't think one could expect negative employer feedback to ever come in a nice and pleasant manner.

Think of course evaluations. When you guys had negative comments, how often do you word it nicely? I certainly don't expect someone to write for my course "as a professor, you should show that you have a good grasp of the material, and I recommend you familiarize yourself with the course curriculum before starting lectures."

It's a high stakes, high stress industry. More often than not, when you make huge mistakes (such as generate interest in no one in your target audience) you would get chewed at pretty badly. Hand holding and breaking it nicely probably don't happen much.

delusional
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby delusional » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:21 pm

r6_philly wrote:
ilovesf wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with giving constructive advice. You could say something like "unfortunately we have decided not to interview you. As a PI organization, we seek candidates who have a proven dedication to PI with PI experience, and we feel as though you have not expressed this in your application. We recommend in the future that to be a successful candidate for a PI org, you highlight your desires to work for a PI org and your past experience in the field." or something like that


I don't think one could expect negative employer feedback to ever come in a nice and pleasant manner.

Think of course evaluations. When you guys had negative comments, how often do you word it nicely? I certainly don't expect someone to write for my course "as a professor, you should show that you have a good grasp of the material, and I recommend you familiarize yourself with the course curriculum before starting lectures."

It's a high stakes, high stress industry. More often than not, when you make huge mistakes (such as generate interest in no one in your target audience) you would get chewed at pretty badly. Hand holding and breaking it nicely probably don't happen much.
I completely disagree. There is never an excuse for being a jerk. If he was really trying to help, he should have been pleasant about it.

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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:25 pm

delusional wrote:I completely disagree. There is never an excuse for being a jerk. If he was really trying to help, he should have been pleasant about it.


I agree one shouldn't be a jerk. But he wasn't being a jerk. Have people been treating you guys nicely all your lives? I envy.

ETA: the HR manager at my last job would look at it, say "why is he applying here," then past it around the office for a round of laughs, then chuck in the trash bin.

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Dany
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby Dany » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:33 pm

I'd love a rejection letter like that. It legitimately could not be more helpful.

delusional
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby delusional » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:44 pm

r6_philly wrote:
delusional wrote:I completely disagree. There is never an excuse for being a jerk. If he was really trying to help, he should have been pleasant about it.


I agree one shouldn't be a jerk. But he wasn't being a jerk. Have people been treating you guys nicely all your lives? I envy.

ETA: the HR manager at my last job would look at it, say "why is he applying here," then past it around the office for a round of laughs, then chuck in the trash bin.

HR managers in general are known to be terrible people. And no, people haven't been treating me nicely my whole life, which is maybe why I feel so strongly that they ought to. I hope that if/when I have power over other people's careers and goals, I will not act like that. (I plan on being the hiring partner at Wachtell one day.)

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YourCaptain
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby YourCaptain » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:48 pm

r6_philly wrote:
delusional wrote:I completely disagree. There is never an excuse for being a jerk. If he was really trying to help, he should have been pleasant about it.


I agree one shouldn't be a jerk. But he wasn't being a jerk. Have people been treating you guys nicely all your lives? I envy.

ETA: the HR manager at my last job would look at it, say "why is he applying here," then past it around the office for a round of laughs, then chuck in the trash bin.


i read that letter again dude and statements like "no one was interested in interviewing you" are unnecessary.

a simple, "sorry but we do not believe your interests align with ours. fyi, you need to communicate your public interest focus better on your resume" sounds less harsh and communicates the message just as well.

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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby johannadark99 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:56 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Guchster wrote:
Yeah, that's a little harsh and unwarranted. Good luck on the job search though. It's for the best, you wouldn't want to work where those types of judgments are made.


Maybe because I am old and have been in business for a while, I actually think that's really helpful. Had I received such a response I would write them back thanking them and resubmit a new app.

Think of it this way, it's like being rejected by a school, but they told you why they are doing it (for example they tell you to retake because your LSAT is too low). It is much better than the plain vanilla letter saying "Sorry we can't hire you, best of luck in your future endeavors." They are basically telling you how to apply to a PI org.

BK keeping it real as always.


I think there's a difference between being helpful and saying, "Nobody wants to interview you. Your years of work in government, with charities, and tutoring high-school students is not enough of a public-interest connection for us." Frankly, I can't think of one legitimately helpful reason to say, "I have circulated your materials among the supervisors in this office who do the interviews for summer jobs. None expressed an interest in interviewing you." Pretty sure the only purpose that served was in demonstrating that you're a rude asshole. Giving a reason? Yes. Saying, "Unfortunately, we were a little worried that your resume did not express as much of an interest in public-interest law as we were looking for"? Fine. But way to be a dick about it Brooklyn Legal Services.

(I'm not the one who originally posted the e-mail by the way)

r6_philly
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:58 pm

delusional wrote:HR managers in general are known to be terrible people. And no, people haven't been treating me nicely my whole life, which is maybe why I feel so strongly that they ought to. I hope that if/when I have power over other people's careers and goals, I will not act like that. (I plan on being the hiring partner at Wachtell one day.)


The problem is "not being nice" is not "being a jerk". That person simply stated the facts. Apparently you want him to dress it up a little, but there should be no fault for not making an effort to do so.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:00 am

This argument is stupid. I vote that if there's really that much strong disagreement over this you all take it to another thread.

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Dany
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby Dany » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:00 am

Oh come on. If you get a letter from one guy, you're going to say "that guy's an asshole" and not think about it again. If he tells you NO ONE in an office thought your materials warranted an interview, it's at least good notice that for that kind of PI, a connection didn't come across to any of the people who read it. Is it blunt? Yes. Is it valuable feedback? Sure is. If you don't like it, throw the letter in the trash. If you want constructive criticism, take it to heart. People are too sensitive these days.

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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby johannadark99 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:03 am

r6_philly wrote:
delusional wrote:I completely disagree. There is never an excuse for being a jerk. If he was really trying to help, he should have been pleasant about it.


I agree one shouldn't be a jerk. But he wasn't being a jerk. Have people been treating you guys nicely all your lives? I envy.


As somebody who has been through the whole works—2L OCI, callbacks, offers, etc., there is not one person that I ran across who took anything remotely close to the tone as the guy from Brooklyn Legal Services did.

If some person from hiring in a biglaw office sent an e-mail out like this:

"I discussed your interviews with the attorneys you met over your callback. None expressed an interest in giving you an offer. I'm pretty sure that this is because there is too much visible public interest connections in your resume. None of the attorneys though that you had the experience for or an expression of strong enthusiasm in biglaw work. You might want to take this into account in your future efforts. Good luck."

I would be absolutely and completely shocked. Nobody would have taken that tone.

r6_philly
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby r6_philly » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:03 am

So if your resume did not interest one single person in an office full of lawyers, you rather have them simply tell you that they don't want to hire you, than knowing that not a single person thought your resume was on point for the job you were applying for?

What would make you change your resume? Knowing they won't hire you or knowing that no one single lawyer in the office thought your resume was fit for the job you applied for?

If I failed at something, I want know how much and why I failed. Maybe that's just me. I would appreciate the time the person took to write me the truth. They could have just deleted/trashed my app.

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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby Haymarket » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:03 am

Bildungsroman wrote:This argument is stupid.

r6_philly
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby r6_philly » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:04 am

why is everyone abusing the anon feature?

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Haymarket
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby Haymarket » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:05 am

r6_philly wrote:why is everyone abusing the anon feature?

If you think it's abuse, report it.

r6_philly
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby r6_philly » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:05 am

Haymarket wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:This argument is stupid.


I think so. Back to looking for job then.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:08 am

r6_philly wrote:
Haymarket wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:This argument is stupid.


I think so.

Anyway, people will get used to working and getting feedback from superiors and clients eventually.

By "this argument is stupid," I meant "everyone engaging in this argument is acting stupidly." Thanks for your immaturity in passively-aggressively implying that other people aren't as mature and experienced as you under the pretense of calling off the argument (but not really!).

r6_philly
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby r6_philly » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:09 am

Bildungsroman wrote:By "this argument is stupid," I meant "everyone engaging in this argument is acting stupidly." Thanks for your immaturity in passively-aggressively implying that other people aren't as mature and experienced as you under the pretense of calling off the argument (but not really!).


You just did it.

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Dany
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby Dany » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:09 am

I will respond to this argument if I want to, BILS.

I'm going to give you blunt friendship-feedback soon.

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Haymarket
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby Haymarket » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:10 am

r6_philly wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:By "this argument is stupid," I meant "everyone engaging in this argument is acting stupidly." Thanks for your immaturity in passively-aggressively implying that other people aren't as mature and experienced as you under the pretense of calling off the argument (but not really!).


You just did it.

Whoosh?

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Xifeng
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Re: The Official 1L Summer Employment Thread - 2012 Edition

Postby Xifeng » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:11 am

Dany wrote:I will respond to this argument if I want to, BILS.

I'm going to give you blunt friendship-feedback soon.


I get a bi-weekly report on the status of our friendship.




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