GPA Drop to No-Offer

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
User avatar
jawsthegreat
Posts: 792
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:51 pm

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby jawsthegreat » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:43 am

Go to nalp directory and check your firms offer rate from 2010 summer. Then compare that to what u know about there 2011 rate from the recruitment process. If your firm didn't no offer anyone, odds are they don't give a fuck about grades.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby rayiner » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:44 am

I'd be waaay more worried about the impending double dip leading to no-offers than to declines in grades.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273316
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:21 am

So much delusion and happy-talk ITT. I always make the same point in these threads, and am always shouted down by those who want to live in a magical dream world where they don't have to worry about their offer. But guess what? You do have to worry! Its 2011, not 2006. No offers happen. Half the time its for bad work product or being an aspie. The other half, its for grades.

I know dozens of law students who worked at biglaw firms. No-offering for bad 2L grades is MUCH more common then this thread would lead you to believe. I am at a t14, and I personally know of more then 5 students who were explicitly told that they were no-offered (at least in part) due to a grade drop (they were told that in better times the would have probably got an offer, but given ITE, they had to cut someone, and it came down to grades). And I'm not talking a major grade drop either. In some cases, the students really bombed. But in others, we're talking a GPA drop from 3.3 to 3.15.

I think a good rule of thumb is that if you maintain your GPA, you'll be fine, because thats what they hired you at. But ITE, I would be wary of ANY drop, and anything above .1 or .2 would make me very, very uncomfortable. Look, its a buyers market (the firms are buying you). You are a replaceable cog, and there are hundreds who would kill to be in your shoes. Why bother with someone who either is not as smart as they thought or is to lazy to keep putting effort into law school? I literally heard partners at my firm say this. They know they have all the power and they don't want to hire lazy associates.

And btw, the reason you don't hear about this stuff to often is that people hate to talk about being no offered and about grades. I only know of the 5+ cases I do because I work at a journal and see a lot of resumes/interview a lot of people and have a gossipy girlfriend. But people do not advertise this shit.

Like someone else said, stop watching lord of the rings and study like you did as a 1L. Otherwise, be prepared for a catastrophic no offer that could destroy your career.

EDIT: Oh yea, one other thing - the whole world economy could very well implode over the next 9 months. If that happens, do you want to be the one with an extra LOTR viewing and mediocre grades, or the super star who saw their GPA improve as a 2L?

User avatar
JusticeHarlan
Posts: 1434
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby JusticeHarlan » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:35 am

Anonymous User wrote:I know dozens of law students who worked at biglaw firms. No-offering for bad 2L grades is MUCH more common then this thread would lead you to believe. I am at a t14, and I personally know of more then 5 students who were explicitly told that they were no-offered (at least in part) due to a grade drop (they were told that in better times the would have probably got an offer, but given ITE, they had to cut someone, and it came down to grades). And I'm not talking a major grade drop either. In some cases, the students really bombed. But in others, we're talking a GPA drop from 3.3 to 3.15.

Name the firms.

User avatar
Bronte
Posts: 2128
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:44 pm

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Bronte » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So much delusion and happy-talk ITT. I always make the same point in these threads, and am always shouted down by those who want to live in a magical dream world where they don't have to worry about their offer. But guess what? You do have to worry! Its 2011, not 2006. No offers happen. Half the time its for bad work product or being an aspie. The other half, its for grades.

I know dozens of law students who worked at biglaw firms. No-offering for bad 2L grades is MUCH more common then this thread would lead you to believe. I am at a t14, and I personally know of more then 5 students who were explicitly told that they were no-offered (at least in part) due to a grade drop (they were told that in better times the would have probably got an offer, but given ITE, they had to cut someone, and it came down to grades). And I'm not talking a major grade drop either. In some cases, the students really bombed. But in others, we're talking a GPA drop from 3.3 to 3.15.

I think a good rule of thumb is that if you maintain your GPA, you'll be fine, because thats what they hired you at. But ITE, I would be wary of ANY drop, and anything above .1 or .2 would make me very, very uncomfortable. Look, its a buyers market (the firms are buying you). You are a replaceable cog, and there are hundreds who would kill to be in your shoes. Why bother with someone who either is not as smart as they thought or is to lazy to keep putting effort into law school? I literally heard partners at my firm say this. They know they have all the power and they don't want to hire lazy associates.

And btw, the reason you don't hear about this stuff to often is that people hate to talk about being no offered and about grades. I only know of the 5+ cases I do because I work at a journal and see a lot of resumes/interview a lot of people and have a gossipy girlfriend. But people do not advertise this shit.

Like someone else said, stop watching lord of the rings and study like you did as a 1L. Otherwise, be prepared for a catastrophic no offer that could destroy your career.

EDIT: Oh yea, one other thing - the whole world economy could very well implode over the next 9 months. If that happens, do you want to be the one with an extra LOTR viewing and mediocre grades, or the super star who saw their GPA improve as a 2L?


There's some truth to what you're saying, but don't you think you're putting it on a little thick and exaggerating the risk a little bit? In the end, the offer rates at your firm speak for themselves. And why you gotta call me out for watching LOTR last night man? I outlined all day.

User avatar
Doritos
Posts: 1232
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:24 pm

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Doritos » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:23 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I know dozens of law students who worked at biglaw firms. No-offering for bad 2L grades is MUCH more common then this thread would lead you to believe. I am at a t14, and I personally know of more then 5 students who were explicitly told that they were no-offered (at least in part) due to a grade drop (they were told that in better times the would have probably got an offer, but given ITE, they had to cut someone, and it came down to grades). And I'm not talking a major grade drop either. In some cases, the students really bombed. But in others, we're talking a GPA drop from 3.3 to 3.15.

Name the firms.


I concur in this.

c3pO4
Posts: 835
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby c3pO4 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So much delusion and happy-talk ITT. I always make the same point in these threads, and am always shouted down by those who want to live in a magical dream world where they don't have to worry about their offer. But guess what? You do have to worry! Its 2011, not 2006. No offers happen. Half the time its for bad work product or being an aspie. The other half, its for grades.

I know dozens of law students who worked at biglaw firms. No-offering for bad 2L grades is MUCH more common then this thread would lead you to believe. I am at a t14, and I personally know of more then 5 students who were explicitly told that they were no-offered (at least in part) due to a grade drop (they were told that in better times the would have probably got an offer, but given ITE, they had to cut someone, and it came down to grades). And I'm not talking a major grade drop either. In some cases, the students really bombed. But in others, we're talking a GPA drop from 3.3 to 3.15.

I think a good rule of thumb is that if you maintain your GPA, you'll be fine, because thats what they hired you at. But ITE, I would be wary of ANY drop, and anything above .1 or .2 would make me very, very uncomfortable. Look, its a buyers market (the firms are buying you). You are a replaceable cog, and there are hundreds who would kill to be in your shoes. Why bother with someone who either is not as smart as they thought or is to lazy to keep putting effort into law school? I literally heard partners at my firm say this. They know they have all the power and they don't want to hire lazy associates.

And btw, the reason you don't hear about this stuff to often is that people hate to talk about being no offered and about grades. I only know of the 5+ cases I do because I work at a journal and see a lot of resumes/interview a lot of people and have a gossipy girlfriend. But people do not advertise this shit.

Like someone else said, stop watching lord of the rings and study like you did as a 1L. Otherwise, be prepared for a catastrophic no offer that could destroy your career.

EDIT: Oh yea, one other thing - the whole world economy could very well implode over the next 9 months. If that happens, do you want to be the one with an extra LOTR viewing and mediocre grades, or the super star who saw their GPA improve as a 2L?


Thanks, anonymous poster. This explains all the firms with 100% offer rates.

User avatar
NinerFan
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby NinerFan » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:27 pm

Doritos wrote:
JusticeHarlan wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I know dozens of law students who worked at biglaw firms. No-offering for bad 2L grades is MUCH more common then this thread would lead you to believe. I am at a t14, and I personally know of more then 5 students who were explicitly told that they were no-offered (at least in part) due to a grade drop (they were told that in better times the would have probably got an offer, but given ITE, they had to cut someone, and it came down to grades). And I'm not talking a major grade drop either. In some cases, the students really bombed. But in others, we're talking a GPA drop from 3.3 to 3.15.

Name the firms.


I concur in this.


Right. Given the high offer rates for most firms in the last two years, I'm going to be skeptical unless you name some firms. Hell, I only know of a single person who got no offered this past summer. If anything it's the economy and work product produced during the summer that produced those supposed no-offers you know about. Work product that was mediocre but "good enough" in the past is no longer as acceptable.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273316
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:31 pm

How to avoid all of the problems ITT: Keep your grades up and go do restructuring at Kirkland or Weil

c3pO4
Posts: 835
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby c3pO4 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:33 pm

ITT: If the economy double dips, you will get no-offered due to grades.

Actual meaning, if the economy double-dips there will be no-offers because the economy crashed. Grades might factor in at the extreme cases.

If you really want to unpack this logic, there is an entirely different debate to be had. For example, firm class sizes are all down substantially because OCI planning occurred during the August market freefall, and firms hedged so they wouldn't have to no-offer large amounts of people like in 2009.

Sorry about all you class of 2010'ers who had lots of friends get no offered due to the economy, but getting a better 2L gpa wouldn't have helped those people. I just think it's really shady to come on here and try to fear monger towards existing 2L's. In any event, time will tell.

User avatar
vamedic03
Posts: 1579
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:50 am

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby vamedic03 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So much delusion and happy-talk ITT. I always make the same point in these threads, and am always shouted down by those who want to live in a magical dream world where they don't have to worry about their offer. But guess what? You do have to worry! Its 2011, not 2006. No offers happen. Half the time its for bad work product or being an aspie. The other half, its for grades.

I know dozens of law students who worked at biglaw firms. No-offering for bad 2L grades is MUCH more common then this thread would lead you to believe. I am at a t14, and I personally know of more then 5 students who were explicitly told that they were no-offered (at least in part) due to a grade drop (they were told that in better times the would have probably got an offer, but given ITE, they had to cut someone, and it came down to grades). And I'm not talking a major grade drop either. In some cases, the students really bombed. But in others, we're talking a GPA drop from 3.3 to 3.15.

I think a good rule of thumb is that if you maintain your GPA, you'll be fine, because thats what they hired you at. But ITE, I would be wary of ANY drop, and anything above .1 or .2 would make me very, very uncomfortable. Look, its a buyers market (the firms are buying you). You are a replaceable cog, and there are hundreds who would kill to be in your shoes. Why bother with someone who either is not as smart as they thought or is to lazy to keep putting effort into law school? I literally heard partners at my firm say this. They know they have all the power and they don't want to hire lazy associates.

And btw, the reason you don't hear about this stuff to often is that people hate to talk about being no offered and about grades. I only know of the 5+ cases I do because I work at a journal and see a lot of resumes/interview a lot of people and have a gossipy girlfriend. But people do not advertise this shit.

Like someone else said, stop watching lord of the rings and study like you did as a 1L. Otherwise, be prepared for a catastrophic no offer that could destroy your career.

EDIT: Oh yea, one other thing - the whole world economy could very well implode over the next 9 months. If that happens, do you want to be the one with an extra LOTR viewing and mediocre grades, or the super star who saw their GPA improve as a 2L?


(1) Exactly what "journal" do you work on that involves reviewing resumes of 3Ls and "interview[ing] a lot of people." Law Review executive board selections are conducted spring of 2L. Likewise, article selections don't involve interviews.

(2) Many firms do not even ask for a transcript prior to or after the 2L summer.

(3) Unless has too many SA's, why are they no-offering unless there is a problem with work product? Recruiting and paying an SA is a $50-60k proposition. A 0.1 GPA drop does not justify no-offering someone with good work product.

c3pO4
Posts: 835
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby c3pO4 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:36 pm

Also, nobody is watching LOTR these days. We're playing Skyrim dood.

Transferthrowaway
Posts: 608
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:40 am

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Transferthrowaway » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:41 pm

c3pO4 wrote:Also, nobody is watching LOTR these days. We're playing Skyrim dood.

Maybe it was because I wasn't holding the controller, but watching someone else play gave me such a headache.

c3pO4
Posts: 835
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby c3pO4 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:42 pm

Transferthrowaway wrote:
c3pO4 wrote:Also, nobody is watching LOTR these days. We're playing Skyrim dood.

Maybe it was because I wasn't holding the controller, but watching someone else play gave me such a headache.


Were they playing in first person mode or over the shoulder cam? This makes a big difference.

Transferthrowaway
Posts: 608
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:40 am

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Transferthrowaway » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:50 pm

c3pO4 wrote:
Transferthrowaway wrote:
c3pO4 wrote:Also, nobody is watching LOTR these days. We're playing Skyrim dood.

Maybe it was because I wasn't holding the controller, but watching someone else play gave me such a headache.


Were they playing in first person mode or over the shoulder cam? This makes a big difference.


First person, dude's head is basically on a swivel

User avatar
Bronte
Posts: 2128
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:44 pm

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Bronte » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:56 pm

c3pO4 wrote:Also, nobody is watching LOTR these days. We're playing Skyrim dood.


They've been playing them over and over again on Encore the past couple nights, which I have to assume is what he's referring to. Anyone who thinks you can't watch movies at night on the weekends and still get good grades is a tightwad, whether 1L or 2L year.

c3pO4
Posts: 835
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby c3pO4 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:59 pm

Bronte wrote:
c3pO4 wrote:Also, nobody is watching LOTR these days. We're playing Skyrim dood.


They've been playing them over and over again on Encore the past couple nights, which I have to assume is what he's referring to. Anyone who thinks you can't watch movies at night on the weekends and still get good grades is a tightwad, whether 1L or 2L year.


Yea, especially when you look back and consider all the things you did to study as a 1L that wasted time.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273316
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:56 pm

Bronte wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
I'm sticking with my story. Get a B average or above and grades will not factor into an offer. Get C's, D's, or F's and it might.


Wow, now I really know we've gotten into a pointless argument when you've been agreeing with me the whole time. Since when are C's, D's, or F's, not grades? .


C's, D's, and F's barely qualify as grades in law school. In many law school classes, almost no one gets below a B-. You have to really punt to get a C+ or lower.


Just so people don't get the wrong idea, I want to point out that this is one of the bigger fallacies repeated on this website. For example, at UVA many professors routinely gives out B-s, C+s, and C's. B-s are actually extremely common. Almost every single professor gives them out. It's really not all that uncommon.

User avatar
Bronte
Posts: 2128
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:44 pm

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Bronte » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Bronte wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
I'm sticking with my story. Get a B average or above and grades will not factor into an offer. Get C's, D's, or F's and it might.


Wow, now I really know we've gotten into a pointless argument when you've been agreeing with me the whole time. Since when are C's, D's, or F's, not grades? .


C's, D's, and F's barely qualify as grades in law school. In many law school classes, almost no one gets below a B-. You have to really punt to get a C+ or lower.


Just so people don't get the wrong idea, I want to point out that this is one of the bigger fallacies repeated on this website. For example, at UVA many professors routinely gives out B-s, C+s, and C's. B-s are actually extremely common. Almost every single professor gives them out. It's really not all that uncommon.


Yeah this a really pernicious "fallacy." It's not as if people can't just look up their grade distributions. Not to mention, nothing you said contradicts what I said. Note: "in many law school classes" and "almost no one" and "below a B-."

The reason this is being discussed ITT is the following: if your point is that people should avoid getting Cs, Ds, and Fs, you're not really making a point. Obviously you should not be getting Cs under any circumstances. This is always bad.

User avatar
Julio_El_Chavo
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:09 pm

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:40 pm

ITT a few trolls get TLS worried about no offers based on 2L grades.

Unrelatedly:

DELETED

User avatar
quakeroats
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:34 am

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby quakeroats » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:05 am

jawsthegreat wrote:Go to nalp directory and check your firms offer rate from 2010 summer.


This wouldn't account for cold offers for poor grades.


09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby 09042014 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:Gibson Dunn always seems to be pointed out when no-offers due to grades are discussed. Do any of you know why? Do you know or have you heard of any people being no-offered by GDC due to GPA drop?


A friend who went there claimed they didn't even ask for a transcript after summer was over. So I'm not sure they actually do.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby 09042014 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:56 am

Fresh Prince wrote:If the economy tanks, then firms will have to make distinctions among summer associates when deciding whom to give an offer to. When having to distinguish between summer associates, grades will enter the equation.

Just preparing you for the worst, and the way things are going in Europe, the worst doesn't seem like a distant possibility. You can hold off on the Lord of the Rings marathon for another semester and a half, I'm sure.


Even if firms don't judge by grades, other employers will. And if we get Euro crisis pwnd you might get no offered for no good reason. And then your grades matter.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.