GPA Drop to No-Offer

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Bronte
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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Bronte » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:02 am

A rant: People used to post that image of the "enter" key on a keyboard to let people know they should break up their paragraphs with hard returns. Recently on TLS, I've started to think people need to start posting an image of an enter key with a strike through it. Don't break up every paragraph with a hard return after every sentence. It makes you look like simpleton.

An on topic comment: Just try to get the best grades you can force yourself to get. Most top firms have never dipped far below a near 100% offer rate. In the crisis, the top firms mostly deferred and such. Some lesser firms did have widespread no offers, but what're you going to do? In a good economy, 2 in 10 is absurd, since it's usually more like 1 in 100 or less. If shit hits the fan, all bets are off. That's why you should obviously still try to get good grades.

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Old Gregg
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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:03 am

Still not convinced.


I don't give a fuck if you're convinced. A fact is a fact. You can believe it or not.


I'm sticking with my story. Get a B average or above and grades will not factor into an offer. Get C's, D's, or F's and it might.


Wow, now I really know we've gotten into a pointless argument when you've been agreeing with me the whole time. Since when are C's, D's, or F's, not grades?

(2) What we have here is simply a difference of opinion.


If that helps you sleep better at night, OK you can think that.

The facts only support mine.


What facts? The only "facts" you have are that you don't know anyone who was no-offered based on grades and you have a bunch of self-serving arguments for why grades shouldn't matter. Argument from ignorance supplemented with conjecture is not fact.

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Old Gregg
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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:06 am

An on topic comment: Just try to get the best grades you can force yourself to get. Most top firms have never dipped far below a near 100% offer rate. In the crisis, the top firms mostly deferred and such. Some lesser firms did have widespread no offers, but what're you going to do? In a good economy, 2 in 10 is absurd, since it's usually more like 1 in 100 or less. If shit hits the fan, all bets are off. That's why you should obviously still try to get good grades.


Absolutely right. I don't see what's wrong with counseling people to maintain their grades. Nothing wrong with being cautious.

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Bronte
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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Bronte » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:07 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
I'm sticking with my story. Get a B average or above and grades will not factor into an offer. Get C's, D's, or F's and it might.


Wow, now I really know we've gotten into a pointless argument when you've been agreeing with me the whole time. Since when are C's, D's, or F's, not grades? .


C's, D's, and F's barely qualify as grades in law school. In many law school classes, almost no one gets below a B-. You have to really punt to get a C+ or lower.

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5ky
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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby 5ky » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:08 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
An on topic comment: Just try to get the best grades you can force yourself to get. Most top firms have never dipped far below a near 100% offer rate. In the crisis, the top firms mostly deferred and such. Some lesser firms did have widespread no offers, but what're you going to do? In a good economy, 2 in 10 is absurd, since it's usually more like 1 in 100 or less. If shit hits the fan, all bets are off. That's why you should obviously still try to get good grades.


Absolutely right. I don't see what's wrong with counseling people to maintain their grades. Nothing wrong with being cautious.


Agree with this, but at the same time I think it's fine to tell people that no, the .1 drop in your GPA will almost assuredly not play any role in whether or not you get a permanent offer.

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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby c3pO4 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:09 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
Still not convinced.


I don't give a fuck if you're convinced. A fact is a fact. You can believe it or not.


I'm sticking with my story. Get a B average or above and grades will not factor into an offer. Get C's, D's, or F's and it might.


Wow, now I really know we've gotten into a pointless argument when you've been agreeing with me the whole time. Since when are C's, D's, or F's, not grades?

(2) What we have here is simply a difference of opinion.


If that helps you sleep better at night, OK you can think that.

The facts only support mine.


What facts? The only "facts" you have are that you don't know anyone who was no-offered based on grades and you have a bunch of self-serving arguments for why grades shouldn't matter. Argument from ignorance supplemented with conjecture is not fact.


Dude, in my first post I said grades don't matter unless you get C's, D's, or F's. If you are saying the difference between a 3.1 and 3.3 is irrelevant, then we agree.

You're the one who escalated and started name calling here. I agree that counseling people to care about their grades is OK, but fear mongering is not cool.

You also have literally no example of the opposite and are arguing from "ignorance supplemented with conjecture." The thing is, a lack of examples is the support I need for my argument which is why I'm saying grades don't matter unless you are in academic probation territory.

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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby c3pO4 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:11 am

5ky wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
An on topic comment: Just try to get the best grades you can force yourself to get. Most top firms have never dipped far below a near 100% offer rate. In the crisis, the top firms mostly deferred and such. Some lesser firms did have widespread no offers, but what're you going to do? In a good economy, 2 in 10 is absurd, since it's usually more like 1 in 100 or less. If shit hits the fan, all bets are off. That's why you should obviously still try to get good grades.


Absolutely right. I don't see what's wrong with counseling people to maintain their grades. Nothing wrong with being cautious.


Agree with this, but at the same time I think it's fine to tell people that no, the .1 drop in your GPA will almost assuredly not play any role in whether or not you get a permanent offer.


+1

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Old Gregg
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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:12 am

the .1 drop in your GPA will almost assuredly not play any role in whether or not you get a permanent offer.


I don't think I ever said that in this thread. I'm not going to say that this has absolutely never happened, but it's very unlikely to happen.
Bronte wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
I'm sticking with my story. Get a B average or above and grades will not factor into an offer. Get C's, D's, or F's and it might.


Wow, now I really know we've gotten into a pointless argument when you've been agreeing with me the whole time. Since when are C's, D's, or F's, not grades? .


C's, D's, and F's barely qualify as grades in law school. In many law school classes, almost no one gets below a B-. You have to really punt to get a C+ or lower.


Yes, thank you bronte. I was in law school too at one point. But thanks for the refresher course :roll:

Some law schools have harsher curves where Cs are a more realistic possibility. Also, I personally don't draw the line at Cs, Ds, and Fs. In my opinion, try to stay above a B-.

Aside from that, Cs, Ds, and Fs technically are grades, no matter how hard they are to attain.

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Old Gregg
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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:15 am

and started name calling here.


Bullshit.

You [...] are arguing from "ignorance supplemented with conjecture."


I said I work at a top law firm and am familiar with our hiring practices. By definition, I'm not arguing from ignorance or conjecture.

The thing is, a lack of examples is the support I need for my argument which is why I'm saying grades don't matter unless you are in academic probation territory.


This makes absolutely no sense. It's almost as bad as theists arguing that God exists because they haven't seen any proof that God does not exist. That argument is fucking stupid, and so is yours.

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Bronte
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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Bronte » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:19 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
Bronte wrote:C's, D's, and F's barely qualify as grades in law school. In many law school classes, almost no one gets below a B-. You have to really punt to get a C+ or lower.


Yes, thank you bronte. I was in law school too at one point. But thanks for the refresher course :roll:. Some law schools have harsher curves where Cs are a more realistic possibility. Also, I personally don't draw the line at Cs, Ds, and Fs. In my opinion, try to stay above a B-. Aside from that, Cs, Ds, and Fs technically are grades, no matter how hard they are to attain.


Fixed. And of course they're technically grades. But if you agree that absent Cs, Ds, and Fs, you're okay, then you're not really making a point. In 2L year, you can count of people giving less of a shit, and thus you don't have too work as hard. But obviously it's in your interest not to completely slack off if you'd like to ensure full-time employment.

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5ky
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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby 5ky » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:22 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
the .1 drop in your GPA will almost assuredly not play any role in whether or not you get a permanent offer.


I don't think I ever said that in this thread. I'm not going to say that this has absolutely never happened, but it's very unlikely to happen..


You didn't, that was just my attempt at resolving this spat, because that's what the majority of these threads the crop up are about.

1. Try to maintain your grades, being cautious should be encouraged.
2. Drop of .1 will, in the greatest of likelihoods, mean nothing.
3. Massive drops of .3+ cannot, in any possible way, help you get an offer. It STILL probably will not matter, unless the firm needs to no-offer because of economic reasons. Then, it could be a Bad Thing. Yet this is not the same thing as a no-offer due to grades -- it is a no-offer due to the economy, with grades playing a role at the margin.

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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby c3pO4 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:22 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
The thing is, a lack of examples is the support I need for my argument which is why I'm saying grades don't matter unless you are in academic probation territory.


This makes absolutely no sense. It's almost as bad as theists arguing that God exists because they haven't seen any proof that God does not exist. That argument is fucking stupid, and so is yours.


Just one thing, and I'm out. My argument is more akin to the opposite: if there are no reported examples proving existence of a deity, that is only evidence of lack of existence. I think you've made my point sufficiently.

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Old Gregg
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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:23 am

Bronte wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
Bronte wrote:C's, D's, and F's barely qualify as grades in law school. In many law school classes, almost no one gets below a B-. You have to really punt to get a C+ or lower.


Yes, thank you bronte. I was in law school too at one point. But thanks for the refresher course :roll:. Some law schools have harsher curves where Cs are a more realistic possibility. Also, I personally don't draw the line at Cs, Ds, and Fs. In my opinion, try to stay above a B-. Aside from that, Cs, Ds, and Fs technically are grades, no matter how hard they are to attain.


Fixed. And of course they're technically grades. But if you agree that absent Cs, Ds, and Fs, you're okay, then you're not really making a point. In 2L year, you can count of people giving less of a shit, and thus you don't have too work as hard. But obviously it's in your interest not to completely slack off if you'd like to ensure full-time employment.


Just to elevate this beyond the trivial, I'll reiterate that I think even a B- should be avoided. And B-s are pretty easy to fall into, even during 2L and 3L.

And the whole notion about 2L and 3L being easier because people slack off is a really bad assumption. Don't really want to get into an argument about that, but that's my take.

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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:24 am

c3pO4 wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
The thing is, a lack of examples is the support I need for my argument which is why I'm saying grades don't matter unless you are in academic probation territory.


This makes absolutely no sense. It's almost as bad as theists arguing that God exists because they haven't seen any proof that God does not exist. That argument is fucking stupid, and so is yours.


Just one thing, and I'm out. My argument is more akin to the opposite: if there are no reported examples proving existence of a deity, that is only evidence of lack of existence. I think you've made my point sufficiently.


I'm honestly just glad you're out. You are reaching C.S. Lewis levels of rigor post after post.

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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby c3pO4 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:25 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
Just to elevate this beyond the trivial, I'll reiterate that I think even a B- should be avoided. And B-s are pretty easy to fall into, even during 2L and 3L.

And the whole notion about 2L and 3L being easier because people slack off is a really bad assumption. Don't really want to get into an argument about that, but that's my take.


U sucked me back in. Unless you already got hired with B-'s. The question is the drop, not the grades.

I do agree that 2L/3L is not necessarily easier, especially if you aren't at a top school. At my school many people don't have jobs and are gunning as hard as 1L or more.

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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby mrloblaw » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:27 am

c3pO4 wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
The thing is, a lack of examples is the support I need for my argument which is why I'm saying grades don't matter unless you are in academic probation territory.


This makes absolutely no sense. It's almost as bad as theists arguing that God exists because they haven't seen any proof that God does not exist. That argument is fucking stupid, and so is yours.


Just one thing, and I'm out. My argument is more akin to the opposite: if there are no reported examples proving existence of a deity, that is only evidence of lack of existence. I think you've made my point sufficiently.


Prove that all ravens are black, right now, without merely using examples of black ravens.

c3pO4
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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby c3pO4 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:28 am

mrloblaw wrote:
c3pO4 wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
The thing is, a lack of examples is the support I need for my argument which is why I'm saying grades don't matter unless you are in academic probation territory.


This makes absolutely no sense. It's almost as bad as theists arguing that God exists because they haven't seen any proof that God does not exist. That argument is fucking stupid, and so is yours.


Just one thing, and I'm out. My argument is more akin to the opposite: if there are no reported examples proving existence of a deity, that is only evidence of lack of existence. I think you've made my point sufficiently.


Prove that all ravens are black, right now, without merely using examples of black ravens.


I like where this is going.

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Bronte
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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Bronte » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:30 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
Bronte wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
Bronte wrote:C's, D's, and F's barely qualify as grades in law school. In many law school classes, almost no one gets below a B-. You have to really punt to get a C+ or lower.


Yes, thank you bronte. I was in law school too at one point. But thanks for the refresher course :roll:. Some law schools have harsher curves where Cs are a more realistic possibility. Also, I personally don't draw the line at Cs, Ds, and Fs. In my opinion, try to stay above a B-. Aside from that, Cs, Ds, and Fs technically are grades, no matter how hard they are to attain.


Fixed. And of course they're technically grades. But if you agree that absent Cs, Ds, and Fs, you're okay, then you're not really making a point. In 2L year, you can count of people giving less of a shit, and thus you don't have too work as hard. But obviously it's in your interest not to completely slack off if you'd like to ensure full-time employment.


Just to elevate this beyond the trivial, I'll reiterate that I think even a B- should be avoided. And B-s are pretty easy to fall into, even during 2L and 3L.

And the whole notion about 2L and 3L being easier because people slack off is a really bad assumption. Don't really want to get into an argument about that, but that's my take.


Of course you should try to avoid B-s. A B- is a bad grade. If you have a B- average, you should be trying to bring your GPA up substantially. The curve is usually to around a B+. It should be attainable.

It seems we're mostly on the same page. I don't see how anyone would think it's a good idea to consciously slack off during 2L. However, I understand, as I've been experiencing it myself, that sometimes you can't even force yourself with all your might to get close to the level of work you exerted in 1L. It can help to be reassured that if you drop off from an A- average to a B+ average, that's pretty unlikely to be grounds for a no offer.

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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby quakeroats » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:41 am

Bronte wrote:A rant: People used to post that image of the "enter" key on a keyboard to let people know they should break up their paragraphs with hard returns. Recently on TLS, I've started to think people need to start posting an image of an enter key with a strike through it. Don't break up every paragraph with a hard return after every sentence. It makes you look like simpleton.

An on topic comment: Just try to get the best grades you can force yourself to get. Most top firms have never dipped far below a near 100% offer rate. In the crisis, the top firms mostly deferred and such. Some lesser firms did have widespread no offers, but what're you going to do? In a good economy, 2 in 10 is absurd, since it's usually more like 1 in 100 or less. If shit hits the fan, all bets are off. That's why you should obviously still try to get good grades.


What would forgetting an indefinite article make one look like?

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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby mrloblaw » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:44 am

Can we agree that the point is largely moot, anyway? I think it's obvious that, given the system we have, the pressures to outdo yourself and beat the curve are highest in the 1L year, before 2L fall OCI. Rational people will put in their best effort and thus achieve their highest possible grades during the 1L year.

Because these pressures fade, the 2L curve is a little easier. Thus, people who put in reasonable effort during 2L should not drop enough that firms will care.

There's a grey area regarding what happens to super-slackers, who get into their first choice firm during 2L OCI then never put in even moderate effort during 2L or 3L. These should be the only people who see massive grade drops after 1L. And frankly, I don't care what happens to these people. It'd be nice if there was a system that would penalize them for being such lazy bastards, thus letting me take their jobs, but it's not something I have a vested interest in.
Last edited by mrloblaw on Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Bronte
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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Bronte » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:46 am

quakeroats wrote:
Bronte wrote:A rant: People used to post that image of the "enter" key on a keyboard to let people know they should break up their paragraphs with hard returns. Recently on TLS, I've started to think people need to start posting an image of an enter key with a strike through it. Don't break up every paragraph with a hard return after every sentence. It makes you look like simpleton.

An on topic comment: Just try to get the best grades you can force yourself to get. Most top firms have never dipped far below a near 100% offer rate. In the crisis, the top firms mostly deferred and such. Some lesser firms did have widespread no offers, but what're you going to do? In a good economy, 2 in 10 is absurd, since it's usually more like 1 in 100 or less. If shit hits the fan, all bets are off. That's why you should obviously still try to get good grades.


What would forgetting an indefinite article make one look like?


Haven't seen you around in a while. Back to troll some Michigan threads?

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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Veyron » Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:41 am

So are there examples of someone actually getting no-offered for one B-, because that would make me very, very unhappy.

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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby NinerFan » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:26 am

Veyron wrote:So are there examples of someone actually getting no-offered for one B-, because that would make me very, very unhappy.


Even if there were, it would be the big big exception, not the norm.

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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:35 am

Gdc offerred all there NYC summers and 103/107 firm wide. Can't imagine that grades came into play there.

Edit: 3/4 no offers came from the dc office. I've actually heard the dc office ofngdc operates alot different in hiring than the other offices, so it's possible that they factor in grades. Even still 22/25 for dc is a 88% rate.

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Re: GPA Drop to No-Offer

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:41 am

A friend of mine was told at the end of the summer at a NYC Vault ranked firm that my friend needed to hit a certain GPA to get an offer.
In the first semester of 3L, my friend was .03 short of it, so they didn't offer until after the second semester when my friend hit it.

I thought it was pretty outrageous.
(Look how anonymous I made this. Didn't say firm name, school, and even made gender neutral. It isn't my story to start posting it online.)




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