No ties... anywhere?

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Anonymous User
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No ties... anywhere?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:34 am

URM AA at H... grew up in NJ, went to school in NY, what are my markets I should target? From what I understand, the only places that don't take ties are NY, DC, and maybe Chicago. Do I have any hope?

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SilverE2
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby SilverE2 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:36 am

Anonymous User wrote:URM AA at H... grew up in NJ, went to school in NY, what are my markets I should target? From what I understand, the only places that don't take ties are NY, DC, and maybe Chicago. Do I have any hope?


You're an African American at Harvard...what exactly are you hoping for?

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johansantana21
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby johansantana21 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:39 am

SilverE2 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:URM AA at H... grew up in NJ, went to school in NY, what are my markets I should target? From what I understand, the only places that don't take ties are NY, DC, and maybe Chicago. Do I have any hope?


You're an African American at Harvard...what exactly are you hoping for?


This is exactly what I was thinking. Maybe he wants to work in Alaska.

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5ky
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby 5ky » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:44 am

DC and Chicago are a little more on ties, but not enough to dissuade you. Apply where you'd like, perhaps leaving a bit of safety in NY depending on your grades/anything else, if you're particularly risk averse.

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20121109
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby 20121109 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:49 am

Anonymous User wrote:URM AA at H... grew up in NJ, went to school in NY, what are my markets I should target? From what I understand, the only places that don't take ties are NY, DC, and maybe Chicago. Do I have any hope?


Just based on some HLS EIP info I have:

If you don't have any ties, NY would be your easiest market to crack. DC is pretty tough without ties AND top grades. Top grades won't just do it...someone I know had 7 Hs, and still couldn't get a DC callback, though he rocked NY. It may be a little easier to crack DC as an AA URM, however. So still give it a shot. Chicago is also very competitive; you would need ties or do something a friend of mine did, and bid entirely on Chicago when she had never even set foot in the city in order to demonstrate her commitment...she ended up getting a V40 position, but her OCI wasn't as smooth as it would have been if she actually had previous ties to Chicago.

You may also want to consider Boston. AAs aren't too populous in Boston...at all.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby JamMasterJ » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:00 am

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:URM AA at H... grew up in NJ, went to school in NY, what are my markets I should target? From what I understand, the only places that don't take ties are NY, DC, and maybe Chicago. Do I have any hope?


Just based on some HLS EIP info I have:

If you don't have any ties, NY would be your easiest market to crack. DC is pretty tough without ties AND top grades. Top grades won't just do it...someone I know had 7 Hs, and still couldn't get a DC callback, though he rocked NY. It may be a little easier to crack DC as an AA URM, however. So still give it a shot. Chicago is also very competitive; you would need ties or do something a friend of mine did, and bid entirely on Chicago when she had never even set foot in the city in order to demonstrate her commitment...she ended up getting a V40 position, but her OCI wasn't as smooth as it would have been if she actually had previous ties to Chicago.

You may also want to consider Boston. AAs aren't too populous in Boston...at all.

Is living in a neighboring state with entirely midwestern family considered a tie to Chicago?

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koalatriste
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby koalatriste » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:13 am

pick a market and live there 1L summer and you'll have some sort of ties. if you want to end up in DC, you need to live there to (1) know this and (2) convince firms of this - at this point 1L summer is your best shot.

also, you have more than sufficient ties to NYC and you can also likely spin that you'd like to end up in Boston.

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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:39 am

If you know you really want to be in DC/Chicago/LA or some other city that wants ties for 2L/post-grad, then I'd really encourage you to go there a get some sort of pro bono or public interest as a 1L.

Then you have it on interviews that you are serious about going there and you can tell interviewers, "I've always wanted to live in DC/Chicago/LA/wherever, and I tried it out this summer and loved it."

This happened with me on the west coast and I doubt I would have gotten offers had I not been there 1L summer.

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koalatriste
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby koalatriste » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:53 am

Anonymous User wrote:If you know you really want to be in DC/Chicago/LA or some other city that wants ties for 2L/post-grad, then I'd really encourage you to go there a get some sort of pro bono or public interest as a 1L.

Then you have it on interviews that you are serious about going there and you can tell interviewers, "I've always wanted to live in DC/Chicago/LA/wherever, and I tried it out this summer and loved it."

This happened with me on the west coast and I doubt I would have gotten offers had I not been there 1L summer.


Credited, mostly because it was so similar to what I said. And the koala is always right.

Also, where ever you end up for the summer affords you a really nice opportunity to network and mass-mail that just isn't otherwise possible if you're targeting LA but spent your summer in NYC.

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thexfactor
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby thexfactor » Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:24 pm

lol you could be from Antarctica and you will do well in OCI.
The NYC market doesn't really look for ties.

keg411
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby keg411 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:URM AA at H... grew up in NJ, went to school in NY, what are my markets I should target? From what I understand, the only places that don't take ties are NY, DC, and maybe Chicago. Do I have any hope?


I'd say you have ties to NY and NJ. Add Philly (and maybe Wilmington) if the area of NJ you are from is closer to Philly/DE then NYC. Otherwise, see what happens with your grades and talk to other H URM's for advice.

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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby Apple Tree » Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:32 am

To piggyback on this thread, when I'm applying to PI internships in a city where I don't have ties but want to move after graduation, should I mention my desire to move there in my cover letter? I didn't know if PI employers cared about ties for 1L interns...

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Old Gregg
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:53 am

Top grades won't just do it...someone I know had 7 Hs, and still couldn't get a DC callback


This doesn't prove that ties are dispositive for DC or of any significance in general.

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20121109
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby 20121109 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:07 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
Top grades won't just do it...someone I know had 7 Hs, and still couldn't get a DC callback


This doesn't prove that ties are dispositive for DC or of any significance in general.


I know it was just an anecdote. But given the context of my original post, I made it quite clear that generally ties to DC are a must.

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Old Gregg
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:19 am

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
Top grades won't just do it...someone I know had 7 Hs, and still couldn't get a DC callback


This doesn't prove that ties are dispositive for DC or of any significance in general.


I know it was just an anecdote. But given the context of my original post, I made it quite clear that generally ties to DC are a must.


I was just saying that your proof doesn't imply your conclusion. At all.

So really your statement that ties are a must is just a statement without proof.

Anyways, I dispute that statement. Maybe ties do matter, but not to the extent that they matter for markets like Texas, Chicago, Boston, etc. In my opinion, even though they do matter, ties don't count for that much in DC. Yes, I know you've had interviewers who have asked you what your ties were to DC. I had interviewers do this for me with respect to NYC, but you wouldn't say that implied that ties were required for NYC.

And for every person you can point do who had STRAIGHT Hs ZOMG and who couldn't muster a single callback from DC, I can point to a person with so-so grades who got top firm offers in DC with zero ties, so let's drop the dumb anecdote war before it begins and maybe get some more definitive proof before making such a bold statement.

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20121109
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby 20121109 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:05 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
Top grades won't just do it...someone I know had 7 Hs, and still couldn't get a DC callback


This doesn't prove that ties are dispositive for DC or of any significance in general.


I know it was just an anecdote. But given the context of my original post, I made it quite clear that generally ties to DC are a must.


I was just saying that your proof doesn't imply your conclusion. At all.

So really your statement that ties are a must is just a statement without proof.

Anyways, I dispute that statement. Maybe ties do matter, but not to the extent that they matter for markets like Texas, Chicago, Boston, etc. In my opinion, even though they do matter, ties don't count for that much in DC. Yes, I know you've had interviewers who have asked you what your ties were to DC. I had interviewers do this for me with respect to NYC, but you wouldn't say that implied that ties were required for NYC.

And for every person you can point do who had STRAIGHT Hs ZOMG and who couldn't muster a single callback from DC, I can point to a person with so-so grades who got top firm offers in DC with zero ties, so let's drop the dumb anecdote war before it begins and maybe get some more definitive proof before making such a bold statement.


Uhhhh...why so serious?

Definitive proof? How can any one person really offer any definitive proof about ties when there are so many variables to take into account in big law hiring? So all of a sudden I need to reach a high burden of proof to be credible? I'm simply sharing what I've been told. I will say that my information was based on a one-on-one meeting with HLS' OCS officers and on what friends have shared with me. You may think that what I said was wholly unsubstantiated, but that is only the case if OCS is total garbage...My friends may not be completely honest when discussing employment prospects as it is a sensitive subject, but I intended it as a mere anecdote, thereby limiting any of its probative value. But believe me there is no anecdote war going on...WTF? I don't even know where you're coming from with that one.

Feel free to dispute the information all you want. With the unpredictability of big law employment, each person can only share what he/she knows...This is a public forum; we encourage discussion, even if some of it may be considered conjecture by others. The information we each receive and our personal experiences with the hiring process will inevitably differ...people should feel free to share their knowledge, whether disputed or not, without any random cries of definitive proof.

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IAFG
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby IAFG » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:11 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
And for every person you can point do who had STRAIGHT Hs ZOMG and who couldn't muster a single callback from DC, I can point to a person with so-so grades who got top firm offers in DC with zero ties

lol i bet you can't. unless it's the same guy over and over.

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IAFG
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby IAFG » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:15 pm

also, it's not fair to ask for definitive data when it comes to legal employment. we don't have hard numbers (or even cobbled-together evidence in lawschoolnumbers style) so we all share what we know and the impressions we got from it. borne from that is CW. if you think it doesn't apply to you, you ignore it.

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Old Gregg
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:22 pm

IAFG wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
And for every person you can point do who had STRAIGHT Hs ZOMG and who couldn't muster a single callback from DC, I can point to a person with so-so grades who got top firm offers in DC with zero ties

lol i bet you can't. unless it's the same guy over and over.


I can.
IAFG wrote:also, it's not fair to ask for definitive data when it comes to legal employment. we don't have hard numbers (or even cobbled-together evidence in lawschoolnumbers style) so we all share what we know and the impressions we got from it. borne from that is CW. if you think it doesn't apply to you, you ignore it.


I'm not asking for definitive proof, period. I'm asking for definitive proof, if you're claiming that ties are needed. Common wisdom won't work here because we all have anecdotes going in both directions.

If you can't give definitive proof, then don't make the claim that ties are needed.

Simple.

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20121109
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby 20121109 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:26 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:I'm not asking for definitive proof, period. I'm asking for definitive proof, if you're claiming that ties are needed. Common wisdom won't work here because we all have anecdotes going in both directions.

If you can't give definitive proof, then don't make the claim that ties are needed.

Simple.


Ok everybody, just to appease Prince...

HLS' OCS told me that ties are needed for DC. Take that for what it's worth.

Better? Or do you want to ask OCS for definitive proof of their claim also?

c3pO4
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby c3pO4 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:29 pm

+1 Ties to DC key. Since it's a much tougher market than NYC, you have to really demonstrate why you want to be in DC. Not necessarily ties in the conventional sense of growing up there or going to college there, but demonstrated interest in working in and around government.

Sorry, but I don't have definitive proof, and I'm just a student not an all-knowing and conjecture avoiding biglaw associate. All I know is the experiences of my friends.

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Old Gregg
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:35 pm

Not necessarily ties in the conventional sense of growing up there or going to college there, but demonstrated interest in working in and around government.


I think this statement is a lot more plausible. On a more semantic front, though, I wouldn't categorize the bolded as "ties."

Just because a job is more competitive to get, doesn't mean that ties are automatically required. There are many other fronts by which a firm can get more selective: grades, journal, personality, work experience, etc.

HLS' OCS told me that ties are needed for DC. Take that for what it's worth.


I don't know HLS's OCS, but I think it's pretty well known that career services offices at most law schools are full of shit. I guess that's one of the reasons this sub-forum is so popular.

c3pO4
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby c3pO4 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:37 pm

I am just saying "Why D.C.?" is a question you must have a great answer to, and it's really hard to BS it. You don't really have to have a good answer to "Why N.Y.?" at all. For SF/Chi/LA, your answer doesn't matter. Either you are from there or you are top of class at HYS, or you are out.

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Old Gregg
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:40 pm

In my opinion, DC is the most credentials-obsessed market in the nation. You need good grades, top school, and a journal to get an offer in that market. There will be plenty of exceptions, but that seems to be the general rule as of the last three or so years. Generally, having that trifecta will be enough to be competitive for the market. If someone with that stuff still didn't get offers in DC, I'd blame personality before blaming lack of ties.

But that's just me.

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Old Gregg
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Re: No ties... anywhere?

Postby Old Gregg » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:41 pm

I am just saying "Why D.C.?" is a question you must have a great answer to, and it's really hard to BS it.


I don't know. Maybe I'm just so used to spinning bullshit in interviews. I honestly don't think it's hard at all to have a good answer for "Why D.C.?" especially if you're interested in, and can competently discuss, the types of work the law firms do in that market.

And I do think "Why NYC?" requires a good answer. Again, though, it's just not hard to give an answer. And because a lot of NYCers are so obsessed with NYC, they'll naturally agree with you that there's no other place in the universe you'd rather live in.




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