another "should I drop out" thread

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Should I drop out?

Yes, get the hell out of there
28
35%
No, just stick it out
52
65%
 
Total votes: 80

Anonymous User
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another "should I drop out" thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:28 pm

Hey guys, just looking for some advice. I'm a median student at a T10, and I think I've probably struck out (I have one cb pending, but it's been a while). My parents are helping me out so, I don't/won't have any debt, and I have a useless lib art degree. I refuse to do doc review and am fine doing something outside the legal field (cop, teacher, whatever). My question is should I drop out? I feel like law school is kind of worthless now, but I want to know if there is enough marginal benefit to getting other jobs that it would be worth it to stick it out?

TYIA

CanadianWolf
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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:31 pm

If being median at a T-10 law school is enough to defeat you, then another career field may be a better option.

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bk1
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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby bk1 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:31 pm

If you want to be a lawyer, stay. If you don't want to be a lawyer, go.

You realize that there are legal jobs other than biglaw and doc review, right?

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studebaker07
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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby studebaker07 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:32 pm

Did you have any type of legal work over the summer? Do you enjoy studying the law? I would need a little more information on your situation before I would choose an option. I can tell you that the fact that you don't have any debt, at least to me, would influence me to stay, especially if you don't mind studying the law. Granted, there are areas of the law which we as law students think we would absolutely abhore practicing in.

With that being said, I think more information would help me provide a better answer.

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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:38 pm

bk1 wrote:If you want to be a lawyer, stay. If you don't want to be a lawyer, go.

You realize that there are legal jobs other than biglaw and doc review, right?


I guess but isn't really hard to get those jobs (midlaw, ADA, etc)?

studebaker07 wrote:Did you have any type of legal work over the summer? Do you enjoy studying the law? I would need a little more information on your situation before I would choose an option. I can tell you that the fact that you don't have any debt, at least to me, would influence me to stay, especially if you don't mind studying the law. Granted, there are areas of the law which we as law students think we would absolutely abhore practicing in.

With that being said, I think more information would help me provide a better answer.


I was a RA over the summer, and thought it was alright. I don't really enjoy studying the law (do people actually enjoy it haha?). I mean my basic problem is that I'm kind of leaning towards staying b/c it will be an extra credential to have without incurring crushing debt, but everyone always says a law degree isn't worth anything outside the legal field so I don't want to waste my time if it's useless (i'm assuming that getting a decent legal job will be extremely hard/nearly impossible).

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bk1
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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby bk1 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I guess but isn't really hard to get those jobs (midlaw, ADA, etc)?


What about small firms? Plaintiff's work, personal injury, etc.

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studebaker07
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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby studebaker07 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I was a RA over the summer, and thought it was alright. I don't really enjoy studying the law (do people actually enjoy it haha?). I mean my basic problem is that I'm kind of leaning towards staying b/c it will be an extra credential to have without incurring crushing debt, but everyone always says a law degree isn't worth anything outside the legal field so I don't want to waste my time if it's useless (i'm assuming that getting a decent legal job will be extremely hard/nearly impossible).


By "enjoying studying the law" I meant more in the context of some kind of legal employment. Have you applied for any externships? A way to break into government jobs or midlaw is an externship. I have the job I have now primarily because I had an externship. If nothing else it is a stepping stone to getting to know people and you can put it on your resume. I disagree with the notion that the law degree is worthless outside of getting a decent legal job. Corporate compliance work is just one example; not strictly legal in the sense that you aren't working in a law firm. But nevertheless, the degree will definitely provide you with some leverage later on in your career.

True some types of jobs may be foreclosed entirely (i.e. Big Law, some of the more prestigious government jobs), from a T10 you are probably in better shape than others outside of that range to get mid-law, small-law jobs (or whatever they're called nowadays).

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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby c3pO4 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I guess but isn't really hard to get those jobs (midlaw, ADA, etc)?


I don't think you should drop out, because getting a free JD from a T10 is pretty freakin awesome, even if you don't want to be a lawyer. The thing is, you shuold just decide if you want to be a lawyer or not because guaranteed any job you actually want with your BA will be just as tough to get as these midlaw/ADA jobs.

You basically are one of the lucky ones. Free JD, good school, no debt. Thank your family.

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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm

This is ridiculous. The answer is no. Particularly given
Anonymous User wrote: My parents are helping me out so, I don't/won't have any debt
. Perhaps things have come easy for you until now, but a career in this field will require some guts - show some, stop moping, and get networking. You will be fine.

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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:02 pm

By "enjoying studying the law" I meant more in the context of some kind of legal employment. Have you applied for any externships? A way to break into government jobs or midlaw is an externship. I have the job I have now primarily because I had an externship. If nothing else it is a stepping stone to getting to know people and you can put it on your resume. I disagree with the notion that the law degree is worthless outside of getting a decent legal job. Corporate compliance work is just one example; not strictly legal in the sense that you aren't working in a law firm. But nevertheless, the degree will definitely provide you with some leverage later on in your career.

True some types of jobs may be foreclosed entirely (i.e. Big Law, some of the more prestigious government jobs), from a T10 you are probably in better shape than others outside of that range to get mid-law, small-law jobs (or whatever they're called nowadays).


I actually haven't applied for externships, when do you apply for them/how do they work? I appreciate your advice/insight, it's good to know that there is some worth to a JD even I end up striking out at small law too.

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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This is ridiculous. The answer is no. Particularly given
Anonymous User wrote: My parents are helping me out so, I don't/won't have any debt
. Perhaps things have come easy for you until now, but a career in this field will require some guts - show some, stop moping, and get networking. You will be fine.


Yea i think you are right, I'm just so used to TLS/autoadmit pessimism that i thought that the JD will overqualify me for non-legal jobs / lock me out from legal jobs since i struck out and I would just be wasting time

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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:10 pm

There are a variety of legal jobs available beyond big law, and there are wide range of positions that would prefer JDs that offer fair, but not high, pay. Although they have high pay ceilings in the long term, and a JD would a "+" next to your name - particularly from a good school). Hell, the creator this site sells real estate and he outsold everyone in the US last year (and he has a JD from UC-Berk).

Before you drop out, if you drop out, understand that a lot of people on this site (and in law school in general) are uncomfortable with deciding on what career they want and area they want. This affects salary expectations and unwillingness to take what they perceive is even a marginal risk. What they don't understand is, attending undergraduate college to begin with had various risks associated with it (let alone law school). There comes to a point what you just have to decide on what you want to do, and then decide on what you are willing to do to be able to do that. Do you want to practice law? Stay. If you don't want to practice law, would law degree help you with what you do want to do? (in terms of entry level hiring, long term promotions, general knowledge, attractiveness, etc.) If so, stay. If no to both questions, you may as well leave.

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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:22 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:There are a variety of legal jobs available beyond big law, and there are wide range of positions that would prefer JDs that offer fair, but not high, pay. Although they have high pay ceilings in the long term, and a JD would a "+" next to your name - particularly from a good school). Hell, the creator this site sells real estate and he outsold everyone in the US last year (and he has a JD from UC-Berk).

Before you drop out, if you drop out, understand that a lot of people on this site (and in law school in general) are uncomfortable with deciding on what career they want and area they want. This affects salary expectations and unwillingness to take what they perceive is even a marginal risk. What they don't understand is, attending undergraduate college to begin with had various risks associated with it (let alone law school). There comes to a point what you just have to decide on what you want to do, and then decide on what you are willing to do to be able to do that. Do you want to practice law? Stay. If you don't want to practice law, would law degree help you with what you do want to do? (in terms of entry level hiring, long term promotions, general knowledge, attractiveness, etc.) If so, stay. If no to both questions, you may as well leave.


thanks man, I think you are spot on, I've just been kind of lost after striking out , trying to figure out what direction I should go

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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:24 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:If being median at a T-10 law school is enough to defeat you, then another career field may be a better option.

srsly

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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:28 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:If being median at a T-10 law school is enough to defeat you, then another career field may be a better option.

srsly


I mean what's defeating me is ITE/shitty state of legal profession-- T10 isn't what it used to be

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studebaker07
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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby studebaker07 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
I actually haven't applied for externships, when do you apply for them/how do they work? I appreciate your advice/insight, it's good to know that there is some worth to a JD even I end up striking out at small law too.


Yeah I voted "no". I think there are just too many reasons NOT to stay. The first thing, and most significant, is that you are not paying anything for law school (or you are paying very little). Secondly, you are going to a T10. If the legal world falls apart at the seams (which it is basically doing right now), T10 will be the last dominos to fall, if they fall at all. Median isn't terrible from a T10, at least you have a shot at some kinds of jobs because the name recognition of your school will likely propel you far. Finally, you really don't have any other good options (if you do have a general lib arts degree). Not exactly GREAT job prospects for anybody right now. At least having a graduate degree under your belt from a top law school will help open more doors than just having a generic lib arts degree.

For externships, your school probably has a list of possibilities. Mine has over 200. You may have missed out for next Spring, but start focusing on something for next Summer.

Bottom line, don't drop out. I don't think it makes any sense in your case.

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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:If being median at a T-10 law school is enough to defeat you, then another career field may be a better option.

srsly


I mean what's defeating me is ITE/shitty state of legal profession-- T10 isn't what it used to be

You're finishing without debt, and it's not like finding a legal job is impossible at this point. Learn from the mistakes you made at OCI and try not to repeat them. I wish you the best.

And larger secondary markets you have ties to are the best places to shoot for midlaw (especially the larger midlaws which qualify as local "biglaw").

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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby A'nold » Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:42 pm

bk1 wrote:If you want to be a lawyer, stay. If you don't want to be a lawyer, go.

You realize that there are legal jobs other than biglaw and doc review, right?

Nope. And neither do many of the posters on this site, unfortunately.

Seriously, I hate these kinds of threads. It's either someone with tons of debt thinking that it would be wise to drop out of a t10 school and go get "some kind of sales job" and "make like 50k a year" than to stay in school for an extra year and a half or it is some trust fund kid being given a t10 degree for free and is throwing a tantrum for not getting biglaw.

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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby A'nold » Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
By "enjoying studying the law" I meant more in the context of some kind of legal employment. Have you applied for any externships? A way to break into government jobs or midlaw is an externship. I have the job I have now primarily because I had an externship. If nothing else it is a stepping stone to getting to know people and you can put it on your resume. I disagree with the notion that the law degree is worthless outside of getting a decent legal job. Corporate compliance work is just one example; not strictly legal in the sense that you aren't working in a law firm. But nevertheless, the degree will definitely provide you with some leverage later on in your career.

True some types of jobs may be foreclosed entirely (i.e. Big Law, some of the more prestigious government jobs), from a T10 you are probably in better shape than others outside of that range to get mid-law, small-law jobs (or whatever they're called nowadays).


I actually haven't applied for externships, when do you apply for them/how do they work? I appreciate your advice/insight, it's good to know that there is some worth to a JD even I end up striking out at small law too.

I'm sorry but do you know ANYTHING? Your posts are the most whiny, uninformed, "mommy does everything for me," posts I think I've ever seen on here. Do you have anything to go on other than what you've "heard" on TLS and xoxo? Stop being so damn lazy and do some research. If you honestly think this economy is bad enough that if you miss biglaw you HAVE to do doc review or end up unemployed with median grades from a t10 there is no hope for you.

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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:39 pm

Most of the people who struck out at my T10 ended up in unemployment or doc review (that I knew at least). I don't know a single person who graduated with a non-biglaw job paying more than 40-50k. The reality of this job market is that there is no middle ground between very high salary and extremely low salary.

I don't understand why people are so harsh on OP (being in a similar situation myself). When your only likely job options involve doing legal work for minimum wage, that's a pretty huge sacrifice. There are plenty of other low paying jobs which do not come with the stressful hours or demands of shitlaw. I don't blame OP for being hesitant to continue on this path.

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bk1
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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby bk1 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Most of the people who struck out at my T10 ended up in unemployment or doc review (that I knew at least). I don't know a single person who graduated with a non-biglaw job paying more than 40-50k. The reality of this job market is that there is no middle ground between very high salary and extremely low salary.

I don't understand why people are so harsh on OP (being in a similar situation myself). When your only likely job options involve doing legal work for minimum wage, that's a pretty huge sacrifice. There are plenty of other low paying jobs which do not come with the stressful hours or demands of shitlaw. I don't blame OP for being hesitant to continue on this path.


Holy fuck, seriously? Does it have to be spelled out for everyone?

40-50k salary does not automatically equate to doc review.

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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby c3pO4 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:46 pm

A'nold wrote:
bk1 wrote:If you want to be a lawyer, stay. If you don't want to be a lawyer, go.

You realize that there are legal jobs other than biglaw and doc review, right?

Nope. And neither do many of the posters on this site, unfortunately.

Seriously, I hate these kinds of threads. It's either someone with tons of debt thinking that it would be wise to drop out of a t10 school and go get "some kind of sales job" and "make like 50k a year" than to stay in school for an extra year and a half or it is some trust fund kid being given a t10 degree for free and is throwing a tantrum for not getting biglaw.


he mad. but +1. id add that the striking out is often related to this lack of awareness.

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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:44 pm

bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Most of the people who struck out at my T10 ended up in unemployment or doc review (that I knew at least). I don't know a single person who graduated with a non-biglaw job paying more than 40-50k. The reality of this job market is that there is no middle ground between very high salary and extremely low salary.

I don't understand why people are so harsh on OP (being in a similar situation myself). When your only likely job options involve doing legal work for minimum wage, that's a pretty huge sacrifice. There are plenty of other low paying jobs which do not come with the stressful hours or demands of shitlaw. I don't blame OP for being hesitant to continue on this path.


Holy fuck, seriously? Does it have to be spelled out for everyone?

40-50k salary does not automatically equate to doc review.


While you are correct that it does not equate to doc review, it does equate to working shitlaw and tarnishing your resume, meaning very little chance for advancement or higher pay in the future. It's not the reviewing documents part that scares people, it's the low salary combined with terrible career potential that worries people. The fact that people think its not worthwhile to go into a career paying 40-50kish with little chance of advancement, and would instead like to try a field where making decent money may actually be possible does not make them idiots or irrational.

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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Most of the people who struck out at my T10 ended up in unemployment or doc review (that I knew at least). I don't know a single person who graduated with a non-biglaw job paying more than 40-50k. The reality of this job market is that there is no middle ground between very high salary and extremely low salary.

As someone at a lower T14, I find this very hard to believe.

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Re: another "should I drop out" thread

Postby bk1 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:33 am

Anonymous User wrote:While you are correct that it does not equate to doc review, it does equate to working shitlaw and tarnishing your resume, meaning very little chance for advancement or higher pay in the future. It's not the reviewing documents part that scares people, it's the low salary combined with terrible career potential that worries people. The fact that people think its not worthwhile to go into a career paying 40-50kish with little chance of advancement, and would instead like to try a field where making decent money may actually be possible does not make them idiots or irrational.


So you're arguing that working at a small firm automatically means:

1. Tarnished resume.
2. Little to no advancement.
3. Minimal raises.

/skepticalhippo




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