Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

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03121202698008
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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby 03121202698008 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:29 pm

IAFG wrote:
California Babe wrote:When I received offers from law firms, you can bet that the deadlines to accept were firmly implanted in my head. This is a decision that affects your entire career—how in the world could you possibly suggest that it is understandable for someone to forget that deadline? If you miss a deadline to accept a job, the assumed consequence is you don't get the job. If that leaves you unemployed after law school, how is that a less serious deadline than a filing deadline?

Your argument is essentially, "Law firms don't care if you can manage deadlines on your own, because other people will help you manage them." If a hiring attorney ever asks you how well you handle deadlines, I suggest you tell them you don't worry about deadlines because there is always a "team" to help you remember them.

How many weeks into the semester did you get your first offer?


What would this have to do with anything? I marked all of the deadlines on my calendar. I also referenced them constantly as I decided which firms to turn down and what/what firms to press where I was held. The firm I really wanted, I gave a 3-week/1-week warning that my deadline was approaching. Are you implying OP missing the deadline is understandable because he was busy? The fact he was busy just sells that he should have been tracking them in some manner better that just trying to remember what it said and assuming.

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby IAFG » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:31 pm

blowhard wrote:
IAFG wrote:How many weeks into the semester did you get your first offer?


What would this have to do with anything? I marked all of the deadlines on my calendar.

Well, I didn't, but I also didn't miss any, so I can sympathize with OP a little bit. Especially when you add the pressure of being back in LS, I think it's fair to cut him a little slack and not be sanctimonious and cunty about it.

But you're obviously entitled to be as sanctimonious and cunty as you want.

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby run26.2 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:32 pm

IAFG wrote:
California Babe wrote:When I received offers from law firms, you can bet that the deadlines to accept were firmly implanted in my head. This is a decision that affects your entire career—how in the world could you possibly suggest that it is understandable for someone to forget that deadline? If you miss a deadline to accept a job, the assumed consequence is you don't get the job. If that leaves you unemployed after law school, how is that a less serious deadline than a filing deadline?

Your argument is essentially, "Law firms don't care if you can manage deadlines on your own, because other people will help you manage them." If a hiring attorney ever asks you how well you handle deadlines, I suggest you tell them you don't worry about deadlines because there is always a "team" to help you remember them.

How many weeks into the semester did you get your first offer?

Even if they were "firmly planted," what if you read them wrong? Or, since you don't seem to have written them down, what if you confused them with a deadline later?

run26.2
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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby run26.2 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:33 pm

IAFG wrote:
blowhard wrote:
IAFG wrote:How many weeks into the semester did you get your first offer?


What would this have to do with anything? I marked all of the deadlines on my calendar.

Well, I didn't, but I also didn't miss any, so I can sympathize with OP a little bit. Especially when you add the pressure of being back in LS, I think it's fair to cut him a little slack and not be sanctimonious and cunty about it.

But you're obviously entitled to be as sanctimonious and cunty as you want.

Agree with the bolded.

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby 03121202698008 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:39 pm

IAFG wrote:
blowhard wrote:
IAFG wrote:How many weeks into the semester did you get your first offer?


What would this have to do with anything? I marked all of the deadlines on my calendar.

Well, I didn't, but I also didn't miss any, so I can sympathize with OP a little bit. Especially when you add the pressure of being back in LS, I think it's fair to cut him a little slack and not be sanctimonious and cunty about it.

But you're obviously entitled to be as sanctimonious and cunty as you want.


? You realize I wasn't the post you commented on right? I'm only saying the fact he was so busy means he should have taken greater care that he didn't overlook them. I still feel bad for OP...I hope it works out for him. I'm just not sure him being busy helps his case.

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby IAFG » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:41 pm

blowhard wrote:
IAFG wrote:
blowhard wrote:
IAFG wrote:How many weeks into the semester did you get your first offer?


What would this have to do with anything? I marked all of the deadlines on my calendar.

Well, I didn't, but I also didn't miss any, so I can sympathize with OP a little bit. Especially when you add the pressure of being back in LS, I think it's fair to cut him a little slack and not be sanctimonious and cunty about it.

But you're obviously entitled to be as sanctimonious and cunty as you want.


? You realize I wasn't the post you commented on right? I'm only saying the fact he was so busy means he should have taken greater care that he didn't overlook them. I still feel bad for OP...I hope it works out for him.

You asked what it has to do with anything... it has to do with law students needing to try harder to not be sanctimonious cunts, although I know it comes naturally to all of us.

run26.2
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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby run26.2 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:41 pm

I think we should start a poll to see who thinks OP will still have the offer.

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California Babe
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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby California Babe » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:42 pm

run26.2 wrote:My argument is not about what law firms think about a person's ability to manage deadlines. It is simply that OP may have other mechanisms, e.g. interactions with other individuals, that helps him/her remember what those deadlines are. I agree that OP made a mistake, but I think it was a mistake that would not necessarily be reflected in a professional environment because he/she would use other mechanisms in the professional environment to deal with those deadlines.


And my point is that it is pretty troubling that someone would need other people in a "team" to remind them of their deadlines. Why exactly is the environment of job-hunting and the mechanism of "knowing how to use a calendar" insufficient to manage fairly simple deadlines?

IAFG wrote:Well, I didn't, but I also didn't miss any, so I can sympathize with OP a little bit. Especially when you add the pressure of being back in LS, I think it's fair to cut him a little slack and not be sanctimonious and cunty about it.

But you're obviously entitled to be as sanctimonious and cunty as you want.


My only point was that it is perfectly reasonable for a firm to not want to hire someone who can't manage to meet a pretty significant deadline. If a firm is basing it's hiring decisions only a few judgments, the fact that an applicant cannot manage to remember the one deadline the firm has given him/her is a pretty understandable reason to "auto ding" them. This is especially true given that a significant part of being an attorney is knowing how to manage a lot of deadlines. I did not make any judgments about OP whatsoever, and I would hope things work out for OP—I am not the poster who said they hope that OP gets dinged. I only responded to someone who said that this should not be an "auto ding" offense. I think it is perfectly reasonable for a firm to ding for something like this, but that says nothing about whether I hope OP gets dinged for it.

Edit: For the same reasons, I also think it's fair for a firm to ding someone when they have typos in their resume. It might not be reflective of the person, but being able to produce typo-free work product is also an important part of being an attorney, and firms have to make judgments somehow. I don't hope that someone with a mistake on their resume gets dinged, but at the same time, there isn't really a good excuse to turn in a resume that has any errors on it. And just to put my cards on the table, I'm fairly confident I was dinged from a few employers where I had some blatant mistakes in my cover letter. I don't think that means anything about me, except that I made a mistake. But I also think it makes perfect sense for a firm to reject me because of it.

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby 03121202698008 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:11 pm

IAFG wrote:You asked what it has to do with anything... it has to do with law students needing to try harder to not be sanctimonious cunts, although I know it comes naturally to all of us.


Well, I sympathize with OP because it's a shitty mistake and it's shitty how big of an impact this could have on his life. I empathize...I understand how it could happen and that's why I took precautions. I do not, however, think the fact he was busy and did not take steps to prevent this from happening entitles him to greater sympathy. So, I'm still not sure how your comment in any way relates to OPs predicament.

I don't think that makes me sanctimonious. I'm not saying I'm somehow morally better than him. Ironically, if anything, you were the one being sanctimonious. I agree the person you responded to was being sanctimonious...but how did I get drug into this by simply asking what you were getting at?

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby sunynp » Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:14 pm

I think OP has a bigger problem in that it looks like he was waiting for another firm to give him an offer before he responded. I think his obvious lack of interest in the firm hurts him alot more than simply missing the deadline. If he had been in touch with the firm all along and replied on the wrong day, maybe even a week late, I don't think they would be so upset.

I think that OP has put the firm in a tough place. If they give him an offer for the SA then he will really have to prove himself .

I vote no, the firm doesn't give him the offer but I hope I'm wrong. I really hope he posts again, but he is concerned about anonymity. My guess is they didn't give him the offer and he is too depressed to admit it.

But again, I wish him well. I hope it all works out for him. I think this was an innocent mistake not a moral failing.

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby Transferthrowaway » Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:15 pm

And that's why you always leave a note.

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby mrloblaw » Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:24 pm

Caution to future TLS posters: Never post about a mistake you made unless you want a spirited debate on whether or not you're an utter moron. We keep it classy like that.

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby Renzo » Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:35 pm

mrloblaw wrote:Caution to future TLS posters: Never post about a mistake you made unless you want a spirited debate on whether or not you're an utter moron. We keep it classy like that.



Seriously. If there was any chance OP was going to come back and tell us how it turned out, I'm sure that pretty much reduced it to zero.

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby Transferthrowaway » Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:36 pm

mrloblaw wrote:Caution to future TLS posters: Never post about a mistake you made unless you want a spirited debate on whether or not you're an utter moron. We keep it classy like that.

I would appreciate it if OP/future TLSers would simplify this process by adding an "Utter Moron" poll to the thread.

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:44 pm

Renzo wrote:I'm not sure why all the hate for the OP all the sudden. Pretty much every post in this thread has acknowledged that OP screwed up big, but that doesn't preclude having a little empathy for him.

Do you all walk through the burn wards at hospitals, looking for people who negligently hurt themselves so you can have a good laugh?


lol I can sympathize with OP; people make mistakes (some more than others), but like I said, you get punished for them as well (usually). Would I feel bad for the negligent burn victim? Heck yes! But if he asked me whether his scheduled first blind date was still going to turn out well (and I had the cloak of the internet to be honest instead of white lies), I'd probably say no.

Renzo wrote:
mrloblaw wrote:Caution to future TLS posters: Never post about a mistake you made unless you want a spirited debate on whether or not you're an utter moron. We keep it classy like that.


Seriously. If there was any chance OP was going to come back and tell us how it turned out, I'm sure that pretty much reduced it to zero.


And here I thought that was EXACTLY what TLS was all about (or how it has always been at least hahaha). If OP succeeds, he'd let us know. If he didn't, he'd either let us know or no longer respond. Either way, if you were curious about the result, I think we'd have a pretty good guess.

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby run26.2 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:51 pm

.

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby newyorker88 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:01 pm

run26.2 wrote:
California Babe wrote:
zomginternets wrote:
omninode wrote:Usually I am a very sympathetic person. But this is such a spectacular screw up, attributable only to OP's laziness and/or lack of concern for professionalism and responsibility, that I honestly hope the firm gives the job to someone more deserving.

There, I said it.


Harsh dude. Everyone has messed up a deadline once in their life. Admittedly he should have really paid attention to this one, but I don't think this should be an auto ding.


It's not like attorneys ever have to deal with strict deadlines, right? If you can't meet a deadline that your job literally depends on, why would a firm trust you to meet other deadlines when you're working?


I think this argument is weak. It's not like OP missed a filing deadline. If it were a filing, you would be working for weeks and have that deadline firmly implanted in your brain.


That's not true at all. You clearly have never been a part of a trial team.

Anyway, missing a filing deadline is no where near on the level of what OP did. This deadline effects the rest of your life, possibly whether you are employed upon graduation. If you luck out and don't suffer any consequences as a result hopefully this will serve as a lesson to start taking serious things seriously.

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby erico » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:54 pm

Transferthrowaway wrote:And that's why you always leave a note.


And that's why you don't try to teach your son a lesson.

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby Machine Spirit » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:24 pm

Renzo wrote:Seriously. If there was any chance OP was going to come back and tell us how it turned out, I'm sure that pretty much reduced it to zero.


To be fair, the odds of him posting the outcome if it wasn't positive was probably very low.

TLS generally has reporting bias like that, especially in terms of the OCI Results thread (i.e. where you'd think every law student had an average of 6 offers).

erico wrote:
Transferthrowaway wrote:And that's why you always leave a note.


And that's why you don't try to teach your son a lesson.


And that's why you don't yell.

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby c3pO4 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:19 pm

To be fair, This was probably a flame (and if so, epic). And, if not, everyone was thinking it, that one guy just said it. Missing the offer deadline is tantamount to missing a law school application deadline.

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby sunynp » Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:23 pm

c3pO4 wrote:To be fair, This was probably a flame (and if so, epic). And, if not, everyone was thinking it, that one guy just said it. Missing the offer deadline is tantamount to missing a law school application deadline.

No it isn't. The law firm can decide for themselves if they want to hire him. They may like him, they may not. This isn't a deadline that has legal consequences in the sense of a claim not being filed on time. A law school can't decide to extend the deadline for just one person- at least I don't think they can- but there is no reason the firm cant decide to extend the guy an offer after he missed the deadline for accepting the first one. I mentioned before the firm may be concerned with looking bad if they don't give him another offer.

Comparing the effect of missing a hiring deadline at a private firm to the effect of missing a school application deadline or missing a deadline in a court case is too extreme. The only real thing they have in common is that in each instance a deadline was missed. I'm sure there are firms that might forgive innocently missing a deadline if they really liked or needed an applicant for their class.

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby California Babe » Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 pm

sunynp wrote:
c3pO4 wrote:To be fair, This was probably a flame (and if so, epic). And, if not, everyone was thinking it, that one guy just said it. Missing the offer deadline is tantamount to missing a law school application deadline.

No it isn't. The law firm can decide for themselves if they want to hire him. They may like him, they may not. This isn't a deadline that has legal consequences in the sense of a claim not being filed on time. A law school can't decide to extend the deadline for just one person- at least I don't think they can- but there is no reason the firm cant decide to extend the guy an offer after he missed the deadline for accepting the first one. I mentioned before the firm may be concerned with looking bad if they don't give him another offer.

Comparing the effect of missing a hiring deadline at a private firm to the effect of missing a school application deadline or missing a deadline in a court case is too extreme. The only real thing they have in common is that in each instance a deadline was missed. I'm sure there are firms that might forgive innocently missing a deadline if they really liked or needed an applicant for their class.


Consequence of missing a law school application deadline: wait one year and reapply.

Consequence of missing a deadline to accept a position at the only law you received an offer at: unemployment at graduation while you're saddled with $100,000+ of debt.

You're right. They're not the same at all.

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sunynp
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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby sunynp » Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:46 pm

My point was that a law firm operates under different rules than school admissions or court filings. The firm can still decide to hire him and in fact last time we heard from OP the firm was going to meet to discuss the situation.

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby c3pO4 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:17 pm

sunynp wrote:My point was that a law firm operates under different rules than school admissions or court filings. The firm can still decide to hire him and in fact last time we heard from OP the firm was going to meet to discuss the situation.



This isn't 'nam....

The point is, while your analysis of the technical rules/possibilities is accurate, you are missing the fact that in the real world of hiring, ignoring multiple voicemails and ignoring an offer deadline fully justifies ( and should lead to an expectation of ) the offer being withdrawn. If this doesn't make sense to you, there are probably other surprises in store...

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Re: Oh Crap 28 Days Expired --- Stressing Out

Postby HBK » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:05 am

Those "just seeing if you had any questions" voicemails- they were actually wanting you to keep in touch with them.

It's like dating or working with clients. If you don't return people's phone calls, even with just an email, they'll assume you don't care and move on to someone else.




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