no job at graduation: doomed???

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Anonymous User
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:16 pm

when browing linkedin profiles I found out that a guy from my T25 (class 2010) has been doing document review for months. The strange that was that he RA'ed for one of the top corporate law professors in America.

it's 2010 not 2011. things were not that bad then. and our school used to place very well.

I thought famous professors should at least have some pulling power. either I was wrong - or this guy got shit grades

Anonymous User
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:17 pm

cattleprod wrote:
Borhas wrote:
cattleprod wrote:
A lawyer doing doc review "until you find something" is sort of like an actress doing porn "until you find something".
Once she does porn, going mainstream is not really an option.

One you do doc review, going mainstream as a lawyer is not really available.
It is the kiss of death on your resume.
Your only option is going solo and build a client base on your own.
Yeah, there might be the occassional exception that gets lucky after doc review, but that is rare and you should not expect it to happen.


why put it on the resume?


Explain the hole in your resume then. A new JD graduate having nothing for 12 months is just as bad as doing gay porn to pay the rent, but your excuse it that you're really not gay, you just needed the money. See how that goes for you when you are explaining it to your girlfriend when she finds the video online. (disclosure: it didn't work for me :? )

Your JD is worthless within 12 months. By the time the next class of graduates comes along there is too much fresh meat out there. With 12 months of no law job on your resume, your attractiveness to potential employers is toast. Why take a risk on the twit that everyone else has passed on?


but you still need the money. that's why a lot of people do doc review.

cattleprod
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby cattleprod » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:but you still need the money. that's why a lot of people do doc review.


Yeah, very true. The situation is such that about 50% of all law school grads are finding nothing and have few options.
If you have bills to pay that are more than $10-$15 per hour (other non-law jobs) then the best quick option is to do some doc review at $25-$35 per hour. But everyone should be aware of how that affects your law job potential going forward.

I am not blaming anyone for doing what they have to do in order to eat and pay the rent. People get desperate and do whatever they can to make quick money despite the future impact it will likely have on your life.
Doc Review = Porn. It has the same effect on your ability to go mainstream in that profession after you do it.

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Borhas
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby Borhas » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:08 am

cattleprod wrote:
Borhas wrote:
cattleprod wrote:
A lawyer doing doc review "until you find something" is sort of like an actress doing porn "until you find something".
Once she does porn, going mainstream is not really an option.

One you do doc review, going mainstream as a lawyer is not really available.
It is the kiss of death on your resume.
Your only option is going solo and build a client base on your own.
Yeah, there might be the occassional exception that gets lucky after doc review, but that is rare and you should not expect it to happen.


why put it on the resume?


Explain the hole in your resume then. A new JD graduate having nothing for 12 months is just as bad as doing gay porn to pay the rent, but your excuse it that you're really not gay, you just needed the money. See how that goes for you when you are explaining it to your girlfriend when she finds the video online. (disclosure: it didn't work for me :? )

Your JD is worthless within 12 months. By the time the next class of graduates comes along there is too much fresh meat out there. With 12 months of no law job on your resume, your attractiveness to potential employers is toast. Why take a risk on the twit that everyone else has passed on?

So you are screwed either way.
If you do doc review and leave it off of your resume, then you are worthless and don't have much of a future.
If you do doc review and put it on your resume, you have the kiss of death and nobody will touch you.
If you don't have any law job within 12 months, then your JD has basically expired and you have no future.

For any of those scenarios the only real option to remain in a "law job" is to go solo and take the risks associated with that path.


Well ok, maybe you are screwed

though I was thinking about as a way to make money while you scrape some clients together (misdemeanors, divorces that sort of thing). I mean yeah, if you have porn on your resume it might not look good, but if you are bar tending and doing porn on the side, I don't think it looks that bad (if you leave out the porn part)

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MrKappus
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby MrKappus » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:12 am

Anonymous User wrote:I know that a bunch of people who graduated in May 2011 have not been able to find employment.

Will their bar admissions make a difference in the months to come, considering that they were unemployed from august to october/november?

They are not idealistic and they have been doing meaningful things. Some have been interning at local state courts/appellate courts (although one of them tried to mislead others by putting "law clerk" on linkedin.)

Some of you said that these people will likely never find attorney positions or anything law-related. Is this true, absent some great connections?

In case you wonder, we went to a T25 school with a great regional reputation. These people have decent grades but do not have anything outstanding - middling or slightly below average GPA. no honors and stuff. Many of them have not been able to land post-graduate research assistantships (given that there are fewer than 10 of these positions at our school)


Don't worry...with your personality, you'll soon be able to answer your own question.

Anonymous User
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:26 am

MrKappus wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I know that a bunch of people who graduated in May 2011 have not been able to find employment.

Will their bar admissions make a difference in the months to come, considering that they were unemployed from august to october/november?

They are not idealistic and they have been doing meaningful things. Some have been interning at local state courts/appellate courts (although one of them tried to mislead others by putting "law clerk" on linkedin.)

Some of you said that these people will likely never find attorney positions or anything law-related. Is this true, absent some great connections?

In case you wonder, we went to a T25 school with a great regional reputation. These people have decent grades but do not have anything outstanding - middling or slightly below average GPA. no honors and stuff. Many of them have not been able to land post-graduate research assistantships (given that there are fewer than 10 of these positions at our school)


Don't worry...with your personality, you'll soon be able to answer your own question.


sorry if I sound like an asshole. I was just being honest. I have been trying to help out - e.g. by referring them to internships.

However, I don't think it is a great idea to put 'law clerk' on the resume if it was only an unpaid internship.

I was fortunate enough to land a job, not via 2L OCI though.

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MrKappus
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby MrKappus » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:42 am

Anonymous User wrote:
MrKappus wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I know that a bunch of people who graduated in May 2011 have not been able to find employment.

Will their bar admissions make a difference in the months to come, considering that they were unemployed from august to october/november?

They are not idealistic and they have been doing meaningful things. Some have been interning at local state courts/appellate courts (although one of them tried to mislead others by putting "law clerk" on linkedin.)

Some of you said that these people will likely never find attorney positions or anything law-related. Is this true, absent some great connections?

In case you wonder, we went to a T25 school with a great regional reputation. These people have decent grades but do not have anything outstanding - middling or slightly below average GPA. no honors and stuff. Many of them have not been able to land post-graduate research assistantships (given that there are fewer than 10 of these positions at our school)


Don't worry...with your personality, you'll soon be able to answer your own question.


sorry if I sound like an asshole. I was just being honest. I have been trying to help out - e.g. by referring them to internships.

However, I don't think it is a great idea to put 'law clerk' on the resume if it was only an unpaid internship.

I was fortunate enough to land a job, not via 2L OCI though.


Well now you sound not so bad. But to answer your question...yeah, they're probably boned. Firms have as many first-years as they need. They're hurting for 2d-7th years, but that's not going to help your friends.

Anonymous User
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:43 am

MrKappus wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
MrKappus wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I know that a bunch of people who graduated in May 2011 have not been able to find employment.

Will their bar admissions make a difference in the months to come, considering that they were unemployed from august to october/november?

They are not idealistic and they have been doing meaningful things. Some have been interning at local state courts/appellate courts (although one of them tried to mislead others by putting "law clerk" on linkedin.)

Some of you said that these people will likely never find attorney positions or anything law-related. Is this true, absent some great connections?

In case you wonder, we went to a T25 school with a great regional reputation. These people have decent grades but do not have anything outstanding - middling or slightly below average GPA. no honors and stuff. Many of them have not been able to land post-graduate research assistantships (given that there are fewer than 10 of these positions at our school)


Don't worry...with your personality, you'll soon be able to answer your own question.


sorry if I sound like an asshole. I was just being honest. I have been trying to help out - e.g. by referring them to internships.

However, I don't think it is a great idea to put 'law clerk' on the resume if it was only an unpaid internship.

I was fortunate enough to land a job, not via 2L OCI though.


Well now you sound not so bad. But to answer your question...yeah, they're probably boned. Firms have as many first-years as they need. They're hurting for 2d-7th years, but that's not going to help your friends.


I think doing unpaid internships is better than doing doc review - at least this seems to be the consensus on this board - assuming one cannot have time for both.

However, that means the wealthier graduates will win out ...

cattleprod
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby cattleprod » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:44 am

Borhas wrote:Well ok, maybe you are screwed

though I was thinking about as a way to make money while you scrape some clients together (misdemeanors, divorces that sort of thing).


Doing doc review doesn't allow for enough time to maintain a side business as a solo.
In many doc review projects you have to check your cell phone at the door.
The BS reason given is that they don't want any photos taken of sensitive documents.
The real reason is that they think you are a 6th grader and you will chat on your phone, text your GF or play Angry Birds instead of doing the monkey clicking.

Borhas wrote: I mean yeah, if you have porn on your resume it might not look good, but if you are bar tending and doing porn on the side, I don't think it looks that bad (if you leave out the porn part)


Yeah, great. Leave the porn (aka Doc Review) off of your resume. Now explain the resume hole to your next employer.

cattleprod
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby cattleprod » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:56 am

Anonymous User wrote:I think doing unpaid internships is better than doing doc review - at least this seems to be the consensus on this board - assuming one cannot have time for both.

However, that means the wealthier graduates will win out ...


Welcome to reality. Volunteer with a state AG. I have read that many of them are starting volunteer programs to deal with state budget cuts.
Here was the NY program.
http://www.ag.ny.gov/bureaus/legal_recr ... nteer.html

The Attorney General has established a Volunteer Attorney Program (VAP), whereby an
attorney may serve as an Assistant Attorney General. Volunteer attorneys will not receive
any compensation or benefits from the Department of Law. Candidates who possess
professional expertise and accomplishment as well as lawyers seeking experience in the
public sector are eligible to apply for the VAP. Each candidate for the VAP must submit
a cover letter indicating work location and bureau preference, resume and a writing
sample to the Legal Recruitment Bureau.


It was mentioned on Shitlaw.com
http://www.shitlawjobs.com/2010/09/new- ... -asst.html

If I recall, the program was filled quickly and they were turning people away. Imagine that.
Lawyers (deferred associates or no job recent grads) in NY were volunteering to work for free and the AG was turning them down.
What does that tell you about the income potential for lawyers in the next few years?

This legal business is messed up. You spend $100,000+ on your graduate degree and your starting salary is FREE !!!
And the near term prospects are about the same.
I don't see any improvement in the next 2-3 years. Longer term, nobody knows.
But by then another 130,000+ lawyers will have graduated. I am sure there will be wonderful jobs for everyone once Obama is re-elected and all student loans are forgiven.

Oban
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby Oban » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:03 am

.




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