no job at graduation: doomed???

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Anonymous User
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no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:21 pm

I know that a bunch of people who graduated in May 2011 have not been able to find employment.

Will their bar admissions make a difference in the months to come, considering that they were unemployed from august to october/november?

They are not idealistic and they have been doing meaningful things. Some have been interning at local state courts/appellate courts (although one of them tried to mislead others by putting "law clerk" on linkedin.)

Some of you said that these people will likely never find attorney positions or anything law-related. Is this true, absent some great connections?

In case you wonder, we went to a T25 school with a great regional reputation. These people have decent grades but do not have anything outstanding - middling or slightly below average GPA. no honors and stuff. Many of them have not been able to land post-graduate research assistantships (given that there are fewer than 10 of these positions at our school)

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beach_terror
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby beach_terror » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:26 pm

What the fuck is the point of this post? Ramble less, sound elitist less, and make sense more.

MrAnon
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby MrAnon » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:30 pm

They may or may not find something. I think the truth of the situation is really that if they have made it this far and not found anything then what they do eventually find will not be any more appealing than whatever career they could have had without law school. In other words, a 6 figure job isn't going to appear at this point. Something like a 40k/year job is more likely.

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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:41 pm

does it have to be 40K

I do know someone who graduated without a job, but who otherwise has great credentials (cum laude... etc. great school) who finally landed a finance job with midlaw type of pay.

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minnbills
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby minnbills » Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:does it have to be 40K

I do know someone who graduated without a job, but who otherwise has great credentials (cum laude... etc. great school) who finally landed a finance job with midlaw type of pay.


Was he qualified for that finance job before he went to ls?

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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:00 pm

no, not at all.
she has an impressive resume, though. the only unfortunate thing was not being able to find a job as a 2L.

cattleprod
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby cattleprod » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:26 pm

MrAnon wrote:They may or may not find something. I think the truth of the situation is really that if they have made it this far and not found anything then what they do eventually find will not be any more appealing than whatever career they could have had without law school. In other words, a 6 figure job isn't going to appear at this point. Something like a 40k/year job is more likely.


However, the JD from a T25 came with a $100,000 to $150,000 student debt anchor attached to it.
Someone who is median at a T25 getting a job at $40k/year?

Yeah, the law school bubble is near a top.
Those numbers make pick-a-payment loans from Countrywide Financial seem rational.

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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby MrAnon » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:does it have to be 40K

I do know someone who graduated without a job, but who otherwise has great credentials (cum laude... etc. great school) who finally landed a finance job with midlaw type of pay.


well its a finance job, not a law job, right? First of all they wasted 3 years and went deep into debt for no reason apparently.

Second off yeah it pretty much does have to be a 40k year job. That's what most entry level law jobs are going to pay for those people who are not in demand.

cattleprod
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby cattleprod » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:29 pm

MrAnon wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:does it have to be 40K

I do know someone who graduated without a job, but who otherwise has great credentials (cum laude... etc. great school) who finally landed a finance job with midlaw type of pay.


well its a finance job, not a law job, right? First of all they wasted 3 years and went deep into debt for no reason apparently.



It was worse than that.

1) 3 years of debt law school debt as your new anchor at your non-law job ($1,000 per month???)
2) 3 years of lost income
3) 3 years less experience compared to those who got a non-law job right after undergrad.
4) 3 year resume hole you have to explain to employers who wonder what you were doing those 3-4 years because you now have to hide your JD. That is because many non-law employers won't hire a JD. They are worried you will leave ASAP when you find a law job. They don't realize that you have almost zero chance of doing that if you don't get that law job within 12 months. Non-law employers don't understand that a JD has a 12 month shelf life before it is worthless. You either get a law job before the next class starts job hunting or you are out.

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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:27 pm

My insight is purely anecdotal, but I know of plenty of people who graduated from T2 law schools without a job at graduation, who managed to land a job within a few months of graduation. Those jobs were not Big Law, but they weren't 40K killself jobs either. So I believe one is capable of finding a decent job after graduating. However, it is clearly not an ideal situation and opens up cause for concern, plus this is only from my limited personal knowledge. I just don't think all unemployed graduates are as doomed for life as others might think.

cattleprod
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby cattleprod » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I know that a bunch of people who graduated in May 2011 have not been able to find employment.

Will their bar admissions make a difference in the months to come, considering that they were unemployed from august to october/november?

Some of you said that these people will likely never find attorney positions or anything law-related. Is this true, absent some great connections?


If you are six month after graduation with no job leads, then it is time to start adjusting expectations. If you still want to be a lawyer, your best bet is to go solo. The problem is that it costs money. Nobody wants to hire a lawyer who doesn't seem to be a lawyer. If you think people will pay you $2,500 for a case after your conference at Starbucks, you are dreaming. People with money to hire you will expect you to have an office. If you seem like a noob, why would they risk their important case on you?

There is no such thing as having a law practice with just a laptop and cell phone. Most people don't have the discipline to stay motivated every day to make revenue happen. I only know one lawyer who has pulled that off. He does traffic tickets. He hangs out at the courthouse on traffic days. He is great at looking the part and typically picks up two or three clients per week by just being personable and helpful (skills most law grads lack). He charges $250 per ticket. He only has business cards, cell phone and laptop. His address is a UPS store mailbox. He also lives with his parents still. But his personality is basically that of a salesman. I doubt 99% of the law grads I know could do what he does.

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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:44 pm

I think 40k is extreme. 50-70k would be more in line with what you get as entry-level at small/medium firms. 40k is salary for public interest.

wildhaggis
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby wildhaggis » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:58 pm

I just plan on being a law professor or something if a firm gig doesn't pan out.

cattleprod
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby cattleprod » Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:31 pm

wildhaggis wrote:I just plan on being a law professor or something if a firm gig doesn't pan out.


Yeah, those professor jobs are EASY to get. :roll:

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A'nold
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby A'nold » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:49 pm

cattleprod wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I know that a bunch of people who graduated in May 2011 have not been able to find employment.

Will their bar admissions make a difference in the months to come, considering that they were unemployed from august to october/november?

Some of you said that these people will likely never find attorney positions or anything law-related. Is this true, absent some great connections?


If you are six month after graduation with no job leads, then it is time to start adjusting expectations. If you still want to be a lawyer, your best bet is to go solo. The problem is that it costs money. Nobody wants to hire a lawyer who doesn't seem to be a lawyer. If you think people will pay you $2,500 for a case after your conference at Starbucks, you are dreaming. People with money to hire you will expect you to have an office. If you seem like a noob, why would they risk their important case on you?

There is no such thing as having a law practice with just a laptop and cell phone.

See, this type of hyperbole is why scambloggers lose most posters. This statement is 100% false. There are tons of solos that have virtual offices. Bankruptcy, for example, very much lends itself to this kind of setup. So does criminal defense.

crazyblink653
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby crazyblink653 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:35 pm

A'nold wrote:
cattleprod wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I know that a bunch of people who graduated in May 2011 have not been able to find employment.

Will their bar admissions make a difference in the months to come, considering that they were unemployed from august to october/november?

Some of you said that these people will likely never find attorney positions or anything law-related. Is this true, absent some great connections?


If you are six month after graduation with no job leads, then it is time to start adjusting expectations. If you still want to be a lawyer, your best bet is to go solo. The problem is that it costs money. Nobody wants to hire a lawyer who doesn't seem to be a lawyer. If you think people will pay you $2,500 for a case after your conference at Starbucks, you are dreaming. People with money to hire you will expect you to have an office. If you seem like a noob, why would they risk their important case on you?

There is no such thing as having a law practice with just a laptop and cell phone.

See, this type of hyperbole is why scambloggers lose most posters. This statement is 100% false. There are tons of solos that have virtual offices. Bankruptcy, for example, very much lends itself to this kind of setup. So does criminal defense.


i don't think it's that hyperbolic...maybe after you've established a reputation for yourself and can rely on a steady stream of business you can cut out the expense of having an office, but when you're just starting out? if i'm a potential client i'm not picking the new law grad who works out of sbux over the guy down the street with an office. it's just not happening. some professions lend themselves better to quirkiness and more casual settings. the legal profession is not one of them.

Renzo
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby Renzo » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:46 pm

A'nold wrote:
cattleprod wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I know that a bunch of people who graduated in May 2011 have not been able to find employment.

Will their bar admissions make a difference in the months to come, considering that they were unemployed from august to october/november?

Some of you said that these people will likely never find attorney positions or anything law-related. Is this true, absent some great connections?


If you are six month after graduation with no job leads, then it is time to start adjusting expectations. If you still want to be a lawyer, your best bet is to go solo. The problem is that it costs money. Nobody wants to hire a lawyer who doesn't seem to be a lawyer. If you think people will pay you $2,500 for a case after your conference at Starbucks, you are dreaming. People with money to hire you will expect you to have an office. If you seem like a noob, why would they risk their important case on you?

There is no such thing as having a law practice with just a laptop and cell phone.

See, this type of hyperbole is why scambloggers lose most posters. This statement is 100% false. There are tons of solos that have virtual offices. Bankruptcy, for example, very much lends itself to this kind of setup. So does criminal defense.


It's still not hyperbole, although you are correct that virtual offices are more and more possible. Even if your only expenses are printing, Westlaw, and malpractice insurance, they can be considerable; so it's not really possible to have a practice with a cell phone and a laptop..

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A'nold
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby A'nold » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:58 pm

I've read books about this and actually took a solo practice class at my law school and can tell you that malpractice insurance will never be cheaper for you than when you first start out. It's almost negligible.

The problem is that we just assume that starting your own firm will be impossible b/c of what we hear on websites and from classmates, lay people, etc. If you go talk with people that own their own shop you'll find that it is not actually impossible. It is actually very doable. It's just that you likely won't make much money at first, your income stream is unsteady, and you will have to give far more effort than just working at a firm. I know a lot of people that have done it straight out of school and make a decent living doing it. People on this site like to think in terms of business law, contracts, and stuff like that. Of course no one is going to use the craigslist advertiser with no office. But with practice areas like Chapter 7 bk's, divorce, criminal defense, etc. it can and is done quite frequently.

Disclaimer: All I am saying is that it is not as impossible as you might initially think. I don't think everyone would be happy doing this or that it is even a good idea in most cases. The blanket assertions are what bother me when I know for certain that they are just not true.

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dood
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby dood » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:39 pm

game over dude

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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:45 pm

the T25 cum laude dude got a job with a finance-related company but his job is also law-related so it's a law job. it also pays a lot more than 40K.

Anecdotal evidence suggests to me that those who otherwise have good credentials (honors, good schools) would be able to land something after a lot of stress and hustling.

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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby Eco » Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:01 pm

Doc review until you find something.

cattleprod
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby cattleprod » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:23 pm

crazyblink653 wrote:i don't think it's that hyperbolic...maybe after you've established a reputation for yourself and can rely on a steady stream of business you can cut out the expense of having an office, but when you're just starting out? if i'm a potential client i'm not picking the new law grad who works out of sbux over the guy down the street with an office. it's just not happening. some professions lend themselves better to quirkiness and more casual settings. the legal profession is not one of them.


Exactly correct.
There are plenty of experienced lawyers who work out of an office and are desperate enough for work.
Very few clients would pick the newbie lawyer working out of Starbucks.

The fact is that the experienced lawyer is probably charging the same amount and likely is getting the referrals.
That is why so many solos fail and end up washing out of the legal profession.
Law school doesn't train you on how to be a rainmaker for yourself.

Those that can do it (find their own clients) can easily get hired by other law firms.
There are plenty of firms where it is every man for himself and you are basically just sharing office space and assistants.
If you can be a solo who finds his own clients, it makes total sense to join that type of law firm just to have a place to take depos or use a copier or store a box of papers for a case.

The virtual office sounds cool, but it is not really practical for any lawyer with a serious case.
Last edited by cattleprod on Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cattleprod
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby cattleprod » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:26 pm

Eco wrote:Doc review until you find something.


A lawyer doing doc review "until you find something" is sort of like an actress doing porn "until you find something".
Once she does porn, going mainstream is not really an option.

One you do doc review, going mainstream as a lawyer is not really available.
It is the kiss of death on your resume.
Your only option is going solo and build a client base on your own.
Yeah, there might be the occassional exception that gets lucky after doc review, but that is rare and you should not expect it to happen.

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Borhas
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby Borhas » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:53 pm

cattleprod wrote:
Eco wrote:Doc review until you find something.


A lawyer doing doc review "until you find something" is sort of like an actress doing porn "until you find something".
Once she does porn, going mainstream is not really an option.

One you do doc review, going mainstream as a lawyer is not really available.
It is the kiss of death on your resume.
Your only option is going solo and build a client base on your own.
Yeah, there might be the occassional exception that gets lucky after doc review, but that is rare and you should not expect it to happen.


why put it on the resume?

cattleprod
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Re: no job at graduation: doomed???

Postby cattleprod » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:12 pm

Borhas wrote:
cattleprod wrote:
A lawyer doing doc review "until you find something" is sort of like an actress doing porn "until you find something".
Once she does porn, going mainstream is not really an option.

One you do doc review, going mainstream as a lawyer is not really available.
It is the kiss of death on your resume.
Your only option is going solo and build a client base on your own.
Yeah, there might be the occassional exception that gets lucky after doc review, but that is rare and you should not expect it to happen.


why put it on the resume?


Explain the hole in your resume then. A new JD graduate having nothing for 12 months is just as bad as doing gay porn to pay the rent, but your excuse it that you're really not gay, you just needed the money. See how that goes for you when you are explaining it to your girlfriend when she finds the video online. (disclosure: it didn't work for me :? )

Your JD is worthless within 12 months. By the time the next class of graduates comes along there is too much fresh meat out there. With 12 months of no law job on your resume, your attractiveness to potential employers is toast. Why take a risk on the twit that everyone else has passed on?

So you are screwed either way.
If you do doc review and leave it off of your resume, then you are worthless and don't have much of a future.
If you do doc review and put it on your resume, you have the kiss of death and nobody will touch you.
If you don't have any law job within 12 months, then your JD has basically expired and you have no future.

For any of those scenarios the only real option to remain in a "law job" is to go solo and take the risks associated with that path.
Last edited by cattleprod on Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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