What does "biglaw" mean to you?

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
User avatar
Grizz
Posts: 10583
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:31 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby Grizz » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:47 am

bk1 wrote:Top firms in a given market. Generally means they pay market or close to it (e.g. I would consider a firm that pays $145k in Chicago to still be biglaw).


Here's something interesting. Broad & Cassel Orlando and GrayRobinson Orlando are NLJ250, yes, but neither is actually the most preftigiouf firm in Orlando (or get the best work). Lowndes is, and they are NOT NLJ250.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby IAFG » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:49 am

bk1 wrote:Well not any, I think it gets grey at a certain point. Though I probably err towards saying that even smaller markets would still count that other people might say are too small (e.g. Portland/Sacramento/etc).

Since Portland has 13 firms reporting starting salaries in the six figures, I would say that's pretty fair.

User avatar
Grizz
Posts: 10583
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:31 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby Grizz » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:52 am

Biglaw is like hardcore pornography. I know it when I see it. Thanks, Potter Stewart.

User avatar
Glock
Posts: 395
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby Glock » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:53 am

Any 10+ shop that provides market pay or close to market pay. Obviously there are better and worse jobs inside biglaw. The point is that you are making the $ and busting your ass- I advocate a pretty low bar for a "biglaw" definition.

Making 160k at a V25 in NYC is substantially similar to making 115k at Snell and Wilmer Phoenix, except 115k in Phoenix has significantly higher purchasing power than 160k in NYC. The hours are long, the work is hard, the pay is pretty good. I'd call both biglaw, but obviously you can prestigewhore inside it.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18410
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby bk1 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:53 am

IAFG wrote:Since Portland has 13 firms reporting starting salaries in the six figures, I would say that's pretty fair.


I'm surprised it's that high. I would have expected no more than 5 or so.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby IAFG » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:56 am

Glock wrote:Any 10+ shop that provides market pay or close to market pay. Obviously there are better and worse jobs inside biglaw. The point is that you are making the $ and busting your ass- I advocate a pretty low bar for a "biglaw" definition.

Making 160k at a V25 in NYC is substantially similar to making 115k at Snell and Wilmer Phoenix, except 115k in Phoenix has significantly higher purchasing power than 160k in NYC. The hours are long, the work is hard, the pay is pretty good. I'd call both biglaw, but obviously you can prestigewhore inside it.

Haha so to be biglaw, the work must be hard and the hours must be long?

Curious1
Posts: 964
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:54 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby Curious1 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:02 am

IAFG wrote:
Glock wrote:Any 10+ shop that provides market pay or close to market pay. Obviously there are better and worse jobs inside biglaw. The point is that you are making the $ and busting your ass- I advocate a pretty low bar for a "biglaw" definition.

Making 160k at a V25 in NYC is substantially similar to making 115k at Snell and Wilmer Phoenix, except 115k in Phoenix has significantly higher purchasing power than 160k in NYC. The hours are long, the work is hard, the pay is pretty good. I'd call both biglaw, but obviously you can prestigewhore inside it.

Haha so to be biglaw, the work must be hard and the hours must be long?


No, the pay must be good.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273192
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:04 am

1. It means a great summer program that is full of potential for debauchery and stories that end up on ATL. Call it models and bottles, call it whatever you like.

2. It means making $160k for the first year out of law school. And knowing that you're likely going to be leaving there within 3-4 years.

3. It means that 2L and 3L year are basically irrelevant for those lucky enough to get BigLaw during OCI's.

Curious1
Posts: 964
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:54 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby Curious1 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:05 am

Anonymous User wrote:2. It means making $160k for the first year out of law school. And knowing that you're likely going to be leaving there within 3-4 years.


By force or voluntary?

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:26 am

Grizz wrote:Biglaw is like hardcore pornography. I know it when I see it. Thanks, Potter Stewart.


And when it's being done someone is getting fucked hard.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273192
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:19 am

Grizz wrote:
bk1 wrote:Top firms in a given market. Generally means they pay market or close to it (e.g. I would consider a firm that pays $145k in Chicago to still be biglaw).


Here's something interesting. Broad & Cassel Orlando and GrayRobinson Orlando are NLJ250, yes, but neither is actually the most preftigiouf firm in Orlando (or get the best work). Lowndes is, and they are NOT NLJ250.


Clarification: Lowndes may be the most prestigious firm BASED in Orlando, but not the most prestigious firm with an office in Orlando.

User avatar
Blindmelon
Posts: 1708
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:13 am

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby Blindmelon » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:17 am

Who cares?

Usually its just a phrase 0-3Ls use to brag about how many and what kind of offers they got - its never, I got a job! Its always, I got a big firm job! (z'omg, big lawl wants me!! ::tear::). Its also apparently the solution to 99% of the people's problems on this board as well as their life-long aspirations (as evidenced by tons of people choosing a firm far from where they want to live due to percieved preftige or magical exit options).

User avatar
Grizz
Posts: 10583
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:31 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby Grizz » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Grizz wrote:
bk1 wrote:Top firms in a given market. Generally means they pay market or close to it (e.g. I would consider a firm that pays $145k in Chicago to still be biglaw).


Here's something interesting. Broad & Cassel Orlando and GrayRobinson Orlando are NLJ250, yes, but neither is actually the most preftigiouf firm in Orlando (or get the best work). Lowndes is, and they are NOT NLJ250.


Clarification: Lowndes may be the most prestigious firm BASED in Orlando, but not the most prestigious firm with an office in Orlando.

In Orlando, it's tops, better than the biglawl branch offices.

Also nice anon, pussy.

keg411
Posts: 5935
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby keg411 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:22 pm

I kind of think of BigLaw as two different categories: National BigLaw and Regional BigLaw. National BigLaw is the V100 and the firms are primarily based on large cities (NYC/DC/Chicago/Boston/LA/SF/Atlanta/Dallas/Houston/Miami). Regional BigLaw are the top firms in more tertiary market that have summer programs and pay around "market" for the area. The lines between Regional BigLaw and MidLaw tend to be pretty blurry and I think these firms try to posture themselves as MidLaw to make them seem more "humane" and distinguish them from some of the negative qualities associated with National BigLaw. But RegionalBigLaw is still technically BigLaw since they have SA programs, hire out of OCI and pay more than 6 figures starting.

Boutiques are totally different since they're so specialized (Plaintiffs firms tend to fall into this category). And while they aren't technically BigLaw, a lot of them are more preftigious than BigLaw.

User avatar
Helmholtz
Posts: 4394
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:48 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:36 pm

IAFG wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:NLJ250, and even then toward the bottom of the list I'm iffy (160-to-200-lawyer firms that start out associates under six figures and are located in markets like Charleston and Syracuse really start to feel more midlawish to me).

Are there NLJ250 firms that really pay 5 figures?


Jackson Kelly, an NLJ250 in Charleston, starts out associates at $73k; Steptoe PLLC starts associates at $72k (and summer associates only make $1k/wk); and Frost Brown Todd in Cincinnati starts you off at $80k.

c3pO4
Posts: 835
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby c3pO4 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:48 pm

keg411 wrote:I kind of think of BigLaw as two different categories: National BigLaw and Regional BigLaw. National BigLaw is the V100 and the firms are primarily based on large cities (NYC/DC/Chicago/Boston/LA/SF/Atlanta/Dallas/Houston/Miami). Regional BigLaw are the top firms in more tertiary market that have summer programs and pay around "market" for the area. The lines between Regional BigLaw and MidLaw tend to be pretty blurry and I think these firms try to posture themselves as MidLaw to make them seem more "humane" and distinguish them from some of the negative qualities associated with National BigLaw. But RegionalBigLaw is still technically BigLaw since they have SA programs, hire out of OCI and pay more than 6 figures starting.

Boutiques are totally different since they're so specialized (Plaintiffs firms tend to fall into this category). And while they aren't technically BigLaw, a lot of them are more preftigious than BigLaw.


Egregious Miami trolling. Seattle and Silicon Valley should be up there before Miami.

keg411
Posts: 5935
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby keg411 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:54 pm

c3pO4 wrote:
keg411 wrote:I kind of think of BigLaw as two different categories: National BigLaw and Regional BigLaw. National BigLaw is the V100 and the firms are primarily based on large cities (NYC/DC/Chicago/Boston/LA/SF/Atlanta/Dallas/Houston/Miami). Regional BigLaw are the top firms in more tertiary market that have summer programs and pay around "market" for the area. The lines between Regional BigLaw and MidLaw tend to be pretty blurry and I think these firms try to posture themselves as MidLaw to make them seem more "humane" and distinguish them from some of the negative qualities associated with National BigLaw. But RegionalBigLaw is still technically BigLaw since they have SA programs, hire out of OCI and pay more than 6 figures starting.

Boutiques are totally different since they're so specialized (Plaintiffs firms tend to fall into this category). And while they aren't technically BigLaw, a lot of them are more preftigious than BigLaw.


Egregious Miami trolling. Seattle and Silicon Valley should be up there before Miami.


I consider SV/SF as basically the same market (same goes for LA/OC). I'm sure employers probably make distinctions, but I didn't interview in either of those places, so I didn't worry about that.

I don't know enough about how big the Seattle legal market is, but you can include it; the list isn't exhaustive, it's just what I thought were the largest legal markets.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby IAFG » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:57 pm

keg411 wrote:I kind of think of BigLaw as two different categories: National BigLaw and Regional BigLaw. National BigLaw is the V100 and the firms are primarily based on large cities (NYC/DC/Chicago/Boston/LA/SF/Atlanta/Dallas/Houston/Miami). Regional BigLaw are the top firms in more tertiary market that have summer programs and pay around "market" for the area. The lines between Regional BigLaw and MidLaw tend to be pretty blurry and I think these firms try to posture themselves as MidLaw to make them seem more "humane" and distinguish them from some of the negative qualities associated with National BigLaw. But RegionalBigLaw is still technically BigLaw since they have SA programs, hire out of OCI and pay more than 6 figures starting.

Boutiques are totally different since they're so specialized (Plaintiffs firms tend to fall into this category). And while they aren't technically BigLaw, a lot of them are more preftigious than BigLaw.

This is probably a sensible distinction. It's also a good warning about smaller big law trying to pass themselves off as mid law.

c3pO4
Posts: 835
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby c3pO4 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:58 pm

keg411 wrote:
c3pO4 wrote:
keg411 wrote:I kind of think of BigLaw as two different categories: National BigLaw and Regional BigLaw. National BigLaw is the V100 and the firms are primarily based on large cities (NYC/DC/Chicago/Boston/LA/SF/Atlanta/Dallas/Houston/Miami). Regional BigLaw are the top firms in more tertiary market that have summer programs and pay around "market" for the area. The lines between Regional BigLaw and MidLaw tend to be pretty blurry and I think these firms try to posture themselves as MidLaw to make them seem more "humane" and distinguish them from some of the negative qualities associated with National BigLaw. But RegionalBigLaw is still technically BigLaw since they have SA programs, hire out of OCI and pay more than 6 figures starting.

Boutiques are totally different since they're so specialized (Plaintiffs firms tend to fall into this category). And while they aren't technically BigLaw, a lot of them are more preftigious than BigLaw.


Egregious Miami trolling. Seattle and Silicon Valley should be up there before Miami.


I consider SV/SF as basically the same market (same goes for LA/OC). I'm sure employers probably make distinctions, but I didn't interview in either of those places, so I didn't worry about that.

I don't know enough about how big the Seattle legal market is, but you can include it; the list isn't exhaustive, it's just what I thought were the largest legal markets.


SV / SF is as distinct as Houston / Dallas. Your list just doesn't make sense. Miami has Greenberg Traurig and a few satellites. So does Phoenix.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby IAFG » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:10 pm

c3pO4 wrote:SV / SF is as distinct as Houston / Dallas. Your list just doesn't make sense. Miami has Greenberg Traurig and a few satellites. So does Phoenix.

Hey, this is my thread and I say this meaningless line-drawing is too pointless to be allowed (whereas the meaningless line-drawing the thread is designed to make is just barely over the threshold of what's okay).

User avatar
Grizz
Posts: 10583
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:31 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby Grizz » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:13 pm

Biglaw = the level of firm I get a job at, no matter the size. Need to tell girls I work in big lawl.

User avatar
Helmholtz
Posts: 4394
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:48 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:15 pm

FWIW (from an older thread)

The top 25 cities, based on number of lawyers listed in Martindale:

--LinkRemoved-- ... Firms.aspx

1 New York 54,282
2 Washington 36,126
3 Chicago 25,251
4 Los Angeles 20,238
5 Houston 14,092
6 San Francisco 12,847
7 Boston 12,036
8 Atlanta 11,897
9 Philadelphia 10,790
10 Dallas 10,772
11 Miami 7,752
12 Denver 7,564
13 San Diego 7,255
14 Seattle 6,999
15 Minneapolis 6,712
16 Cleveland 6,293
17 St. Louis 6,157
18 Pittsburgh 5,687
19 Portland 5,687
20 Austin 5,563
21 Columbus 5,532
22 Phoenix 5,478
23 Sacramento 4,426
24 Kansas City 4,420
25 Indianapolis 4,387

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby IAFG » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:17 pm

Wow I sincerely didn't know DC came before Chicago and LA.

We could re-calculate that list to find lawyers per capita and have a good start on a listing of America's 20 shittiest cities

keg411
Posts: 5935
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby keg411 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:27 pm

My own "arbitrary line drawing" was pretty freakin' accurate based on Helm's chart.
Difference between Seattle and Miami is close to 1k and SV is nowhere to be found (unless they included it with SF :D).

User avatar
Blindmelon
Posts: 1708
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:13 am

Re: What does "biglaw" mean to you?

Postby Blindmelon » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:34 pm

Wow, surprised Boston is so small comparatively - almost same size as Atlanta yet has tons of lawschools, yeesh.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.