Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

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kwais
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby kwais » Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:55 pm

I think the least gross thing in this thread is OP's misguided but candid question. Everyone in here who trashed OP has done something much worse in their life, probably got away with it, absolved themselves and then proceed to take the moral high ground on an internet board. That's gross

If you care so much about honesty, then the right answer here is "no OP, that is a bad a idea and probably won't help you"

c3pO4
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby c3pO4 » Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:59 pm

kwais wrote:I think the least gross thing in this thread is OP's misguided but candid question. Everyone in here who trashed OP has done something much worse in their life, probably got away with it, absolved themselves and then proceed to take the moral high ground on an internet board. That's gross

If you care so much about honesty, then the right answer here is "no OP, that is a bad a idea and probably won't help you"


project much?

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kwais
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby kwais » Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:01 pm

c3pO4 wrote:
kwais wrote:I think the least gross thing in this thread is OP's misguided but candid question. Everyone in here who trashed OP has done something much worse in their life, probably got away with it, absolved themselves and then proceed to take the moral high ground on an internet board. That's gross

If you care so much about honesty, then the right answer here is "no OP, that is a bad a idea and probably won't help you"


project much?


dubious use of psych 101 much?

flcath
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby flcath » Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:19 pm

I've also thought about doing this. My take ultimately was that (a) it probably wouldn't help that much, if at all, (b) if uncovered, it would 100% kill your odds with that firm, (c) if uncovered, it *might* subject you to broader sanctions (though I tend to doubt it), and (d) it really isn't a fair way to try to put yourself above your competition.

I don't think you're a bad person for thinking about it, and in fact it's better to decide what you're going to do in advance so you don't blurt out "yes" when they ask if you're holding another offer (I got asked this on the phone last week, and it's painful to be like "no, not at this time").

EDIT: I should clarify that the phone call was the point at which I "thought about doing it." I've never actually considered calling in separately to tell a firm I had an offer. Doing that all of the sudden strikes me as more unethical than I'd initially considered.
Last edited by flcath on Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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minnbills
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby minnbills » Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:23 pm

kwais wrote:I think the least gross thing in this thread is OP's misguided but candid question. Everyone in here who trashed OP has done something much worse in their life, probably got away with it, absolved themselves and then proceed to take the moral high ground on an internet board. That's gross

If you care so much about honesty, then the right answer here is "no OP, that is a bad a idea and probably won't help you"


People make mistakes, that doesn't make it ok. Moreover, OP came onto an anonymous board and tried to find out if s/he could get away with unethical behavior. The premeditation alone would, I would imagine, raise doubts about the OP's character.

cattleprod
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby cattleprod » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:34 pm

c3pO4 wrote:Sad thing is, your lack of ethics is shared by many lawyers out there. Hope you keep doing it, get caught, and get disbarred some day.


That is cute. You think lawyers get disbarred for that? Seriously?
It is called bluffing. It is part of any negotiation.

ralphdickerson
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby ralphdickerson » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:45 pm

Check out this USC guy, who said f-you to biglaw and hello to making music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 7EoEwNQ2PY

c3pO4
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby c3pO4 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:52 pm

ralphdickerson wrote:Check out this USC guy, who said f-you to biglaw and hello to making music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 7EoEwNQ2PY


So Satin turned down biglaw to keep making music? If so I'll buy the album just for props. IMO take biglaw, and Good Husbands is your first client, profit.

cattleprod
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby cattleprod » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:57 pm

I have no idea if calling the law firm, to bluff about another offer, would help or hurt the odds of getting that law firm to make an offer. However, for the sake of the debate, let's say that we agree that Yes it will. If the law firm believes you have another offer, this particular law firm wants the law grad that is desired by others. They will make an offer if you successfully bluff in the negotiations. So how do we go about it as a bluff?

The world is not fair. If you have $150,000 in student loans and you don't have a job offer that can support that debt, then you need to look at this as a settlement negotiation of any legal situation. What is your goal for this settlement agreement that you are trying to achieve? You want a large enough settlement (aka salary) that will meet the needs of your client (you and your parents who co-signed the loan docs). You need to reach a target of $120,000+ per year otherwise your clients will get screwed badly (credit files trashed, nobody will date you, you will be doing traffic tickets, etc). It is time to get creative in your negotiations.

Have your buddy offer you a job, it doesn't have to be in law. Even if it is his lawn service mowing grass, it is a job. The law school would count that as employed 9 months after graduation. So can you. If the ABA says it is cool for law schools, who are we to argue?

Now you have an "offer". You can legitimately tell the V100 firm that, 'I have another "offer", but the V100 firm is my first choice. Please let me know ASAP so that I can make the best decision possible.' If they ask where your offer is, you say that you would prefer to keep that confidential to preserve all options. It is all in how you say it. Lawyers are used to that.

06162014123
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Postby 06162014123 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:02 am

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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:09 am

i can tell you this much... law is the most hypocritical field I have ever seen. You have the dean of a law school talk about how law students should maintain the highest level of ethics above how normal people behave.. and then they turn around and manipulate employment statistics...

I summered with a firm that no offered 1/2 the summer class. After I received an offer from them, I asked them about the the low offer rates from last year, they told me that things are a lot different now and that they are only hiring as many summer associates as they can hire full time.....

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vanwinkle
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:25 pm

RedShift wrote:Give me a break. People do this kind of thing. It's a calculated, business risk and it's far from illegal. Do it at your own risk.

I don't think anyone has argued it's illegal, or that people don't ever do this kind of thing. Really, the arguments have been that the risk is too great because the consequences are severe (having your job offer rescinded/finding it much harder to find work after you're caught/facing C&F issues). Nobody is saying those outcomes are certain, but they are correctly pointing out they're among the potential risks you face. It's "do it at your own risk", but making clear you'd be stupid to take those kind of risks.

Maybe next time pay attention before getting on your own high horse?

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romothesavior
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:28 pm

The risks substantially outweigh the potential gain, IMO.

06162014123
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Postby 06162014123 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:48 pm

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vanwinkle
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:51 pm

RedShift wrote:You're ignoring the rest of my post, which was to say that everyone is blowing it out of proportion. The posters ITT would have you believe that even considering doing this makes you a lousy cheat of a person. The fact that people tried to conclude future law-breaking behavior based on the contemplation of a negotiating tactic is laughable.

It's a fact that employers do frequently make such conclusions. Employers will frequently assume that you will commit future law-breaking behavior, or at least future unethical behavior, and decline to hire you based on this. In an overloaded hiring market where ethics matter and employers can pick and choose between applicants, they'll take someone who's equally qualified but didn't lie over one who did. Regardless of what anyone thinks in this thread, factually that's true and worthy of being raised.

This isn't just a "negotiating tactic". It's lying to an employer, which carries repercussions beyond simply failing to negotiate successfully.

RedShift wrote:And we can't decide for OP if the risks outweigh the benefits, since the threshold for making the decision varies on an individual basis. If he really wants the decision a few days sooner, maybe it's the right choice. This kind of thing happens all the time and if you don't think so you're naive or ignorant.

"This kind of thing happens all the time" is not a valid justification for anything. People speed all the time, and many aren't pulled over, but those who do still have to pay their tickets. The court clerk and the judge don't take "this kind of thing happens all the time" as a defense. If the punishment for speeding were the loss of a job offer and potentially even disbarment, would you speed, even if the odds of being pulled over were low?

The gains are so low and the risks are so high that it's obvious to just about anyone that you shouldn't do it. Besides that, someone who thinks it's okay to lie to get ahead like this isn't going to function well in the law for very long.

c3pO4
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby c3pO4 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:04 pm

RedShift wrote:You're ignoring the rest of my post, which was to say that everyone is blowing it out of proportion. The posters ITT would have you believe that even considering doing this makes you a lousy cheat of a person.


You missed the point. It's not about lousy cheat or not. If you consider doing this, meaning you don't realize how obviously stupid it is, you are just an idiot.

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kwais
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby kwais » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:08 pm

c3pO4 wrote:Sad thing is, your lack of ethics is shared by many lawyers out there. Hope you keep doing it, get caught, and get disbarred some day.


c3pO4 wrote:You missed the point. It's not about lousy cheat or not. If you consider doing this, meaning you don't realize how obviously stupid it is, you are just an idiot.


:roll:

06162014123
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Postby 06162014123 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:15 pm

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IAFG
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby IAFG » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:21 pm

i hate all of u

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birdlaw117
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:58 pm

IAFG wrote:i hate all of u

c3pO4
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby c3pO4 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:00 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
IAFG wrote:i hate all of u

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vanwinkle
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:36 pm

RedShift wrote:As for disbarment, how is this firm going to know you're lying? If they ask what firm, you can make the very reasonable claim that you don't want to share that information. Short of calling every law firm around, they can only operate on suspicions. If they really think you're lying they won't hire you... but if that's the case they probably weren't going to anyway.

The first thing many firms will do is ask, "What firm?" Asking is customary, and it'll seem suspicious if you don't answer.

Actually, looking at your post history, it's obvious you're a 0L. We have a new forum set up for 0Ls, "Ask A Law Student", where they can ask and get information from current law students. 0Ls who continue to clog up the Students and Graduates forums are liable to be banned quickly as trolls. Please keep this in mind in the future.

cattleprod
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby cattleprod » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:15 pm

vanwinkle wrote:Actually, looking at your post history, it's obvious you're a 0L. We have a new forum set up for 0Ls, "Ask A Law Student", where they can ask and get information from current law students. 0Ls who continue to clog up the Students and Graduates forums are liable to be banned quickly as trolls. Please keep this in mind in the future.


That's classy. You disagree with his POV and threaten to ban him over a trumped up charge? Seriously?

Clogging up the forums?
vanwinkle = 13,600+ posts in 35 months. Almost 400 posts per month.
Redshift = 236 posts in 18 months. About 13 posts per month.

Please vanwinkle, ban yourself before you clog up the forums any more. :wink:

God help us if you ever try to become a judge with this type of response to a debate.

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romothesavior
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:24 pm

cattleprod wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:Actually, looking at your post history, it's obvious you're a 0L. We have a new forum set up for 0Ls, "Ask A Law Student", where they can ask and get information from current law students. 0Ls who continue to clog up the Students and Graduates forums are liable to be banned quickly as trolls. Please keep this in mind in the future.


That's classy. You disagree with his POV and threaten to ban him over a trumped up charge? Seriously?

Clogging up the forums?
vanwinkle = 13,600+ posts in 35 months. Almost 400 posts per month.
Redshift = 236 posts in 18 months. About 13 posts per month.

Please vanwinkle, ban yourself before you clog up the forums any more. :wink:

God help us if you ever try to become a judge with this type of response to a debate.

You're an idiot.

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paratactical
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Re: Is it ever a good idea to lie about having another offer?

Postby paratactical » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:26 pm

cattleprod wrote:
That's classy. You disagree with his POV and threaten to ban him over a trumped up charge? Seriously?

Clogging up the forums?
vanwinkle = 13,600+ posts in 35 months. Almost 400 posts per month.
Redshift = 236 posts in 18 months. About 13 posts per month.

Please vanwinkle, ban yourself before you clog up the forums any more. :wink:

God help us if you ever try to become a judge with this type of response to a debate.

Oh boy. I think we have a winner!




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