A plan for a Jobless 3L Forum

[Anonymous User]

So a 3L with post graduation employment, I have been mulling over a plan that I thought maybe those wise sages of TLS could comment on. I am considering doing an LLM in tax at NYU to try to improve my prospects of getting a decent job, I could do it in one semester if I switch around my classes next year to all tax.

I was just wondering what the general sense of the employment boost that would be provided by an NYU tax LLM.

BTW, other stats are CCN, top 10%, secondary journal, no pre-law school WE, no SA (government internship unrelated to tax).

Thanks.

BTW, the LLM will cost me 35K or so.

[MrPapagiorgio]

Top 10% at CCN and you didn't snag a offer? You must have interviewed like shit. And an LLM isn't going to change that.

[Geist13]

top 10% CCN? I don't really know much about jobs after LLM, but I can't imagine a few more classes in tax is going to get you anything more that you can't already get. If you stuck out with those grades, there's something wrong that another degree won't fix. If, on the other hand, you just didn't do OCI or there's some other circumstance, you should be able to find something between now and when you get your bar results. It may not be biglaw, but it'll be something.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Fair point, so far as it goes. My interviewing has been going much better as a 3L (screener to CB rate wise). Also, based on my experience with tax attorneys it does seem as though the, non-academic standards, are noticeably lower.

[c3pO4]

OP here. Fair point, so far as it goes. My interviewing has been going much better as a 3L (screener to CB rate wise). Also, based on my experience with tax attorneys it does seem as though the, non-academic standards, are noticeably lower.

comma attack!

[Anonymous User]

OP again: yes, in brief there were some serious problems with my interviewing as a 2L, but we are beyond that now. The real issue with non-biglaw that I might be able to get before my bar results is simply it will not pay enough to service my loan burden in a realistic time frame.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Fair point, so far as it goes. My interviewing has been going much better as a 3L (screener to CB rate wise). Also, based on my experience with tax attorneys it does seem as though the, non-academic standards, are noticeably lower.

comma attack!

Yeah, I probably should have used a dash, or written that sentence differently. Fair point.

[MrPapagiorgio]

OP again: yes, in brief there were some serious problems with my interviewing as a 2L, but we are beyond that now

Did you refer to yourself using plural pronouns during the interviews? It may explain a lot.

[Anonymous User]

No, however perhaps I should have.

[Anonymous User]

Don't know, but I'm sure your career services office could provide some info. But would definitely talk to some tax associates at various firms and see what they think -- at my firm, if you wanted to join the tax practice, they require a tax LLM, so no one from my summer class joined tax. Sounds like maybe it could work for you... Good luck! You have great stats and I'm sure you will make it work.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Yeah

Don't know, but I'm sure your career services office could provide some info. But would definitely talk to some tax associates at various firms and see what they think -- at my firm, if you wanted to join the tax practice, they require a tax LLM, so no one from my summer class joined tax. Sounds like maybe it could work for you... Good luck! You have great stats and I'm sure you will make it work.

Yeah, that might be wise. I am working in a tax clinic so I am working with a lot of tax guys right now. I am sure they might have some insights.

[Pato_09]

Top 10% of CCN, and a Tax LLM from the best program in the country will make you a great great candidate.

Definitely will help to get another shot at big law. I believe there is a round of interviews while you are doing your Tax LLM, and after you graduate from the LLM. Plus, there are several tax boutiques that pay market, and have outstanding reputation that would look at you. Also, now that you have practice on interviewing, as a 2L and 3L, you will do a lot better the next time around.

Good Luck!

[A'nold]

I've heard many times on this board that LLM's in tax aren't the "second chance at biglaw" that they used to be, even at NYU.

[Pato_09]

Just because you have "heard" on this board does not mean it is true. He will be a great candidate for many big law firms with large tax departments, and to top-notch tax boutiques.

10% at CCN, with a Tax LLM at the best program in the country will make him a very good candidate.

[ToTransferOrNot]

Just because you have "heard" on this board does not mean it is true. He will be a great candidate for many big law firms with large tax departments, and to top-notch tax boutiques.

10% at CCN, with a Tax LLM at the best program in the country will make him a very good candidate.

Top 10% at CCN alone made him a "very good candidate," yet he didn't get a job. The LLM is an awfully expensive second (and not nearly as large) bite at the apple.

That said, if you're facing down the full $160k+ debt load already, without biglaw you're already looking at having to take advantage of 25-year IBR, more than likely. This might be one of those situations where it's worth the risk.

[MrAnon]

If you can't get a job now you won't get a job with an LLM. You are just kicking the can down the road. Get out there and interview and eventually you'll hopefully find something.

[c3pO4]

If you can't get a job now you won't get a job with an LLM. You are just kicking the can down the road. Get out there and interview and eventually you'll hopefully find something.

+180. The problem is obviously not your degree. And, another shot at OCI for 35k sounds like a huge gamble for somebody who has already gone 0-for with OCI. You don't really have any clue if whatever your issue was is fixed. If it was just bad luck, also could strike again.

There's no way you couldn't get a 6 fig midlaw job with top 10% CCN in almost any reasonably sized market, or your home market. With your creds maybe after 2-3 years you can lateral into biglaw.

Either way, a tax LLM sounds like a bad bet.

[keg411]

At top 10%/CCN, why didn't you apply for federal clerkships? That would probably give you a better shot at BigLaw than a Tax LLM.

[Anonymous User]

At top 10%/CCN, why didn't you apply for federal clerkships? That would probably give you a better shot at BigLaw than a Tax LLM.

I wonder that too. Although top 10% + secondary journal by no means guarantees a clerkship, a flyover district court would have been a reasonable shot.

[PeanutHead]

Keep in mind that the hiring program for the tax LLM is TIP (tax interview program), which NYU and GULC share. Supposedly it is kind of a joke, especially for BigLaw. It is really not at all like a second OCI.

That said, you are the type of candidate that would get snapped up first. There are a bunch of people from non T14 JD schools that you will be competing with. I would take a serious look at your interviewing skills though in the meantime and try to find some sort of part time job that indicates an interest in tax

Good luck

[Anonymous User]

Keep in mind that the hiring program for the tax LLM is TIP (tax interview program), which NYU and GULC share. Supposedly it is kind of a joke, especially for BigLaw. It is really not at all like a second OCI.

That said, you are the type of candidate that would get snapped up first. There are a bunch of people from non T14 JD schools that you will be competing with. I would take a serious look at your interviewing skills though in the meantime and try to find some sort of part time job that indicates an interest in tax

Good luck

I didn't realize it is shared, but from experience, the people who make the JD + Tax LL.M are GULC work for them in Biglaw are those who declare it before 3L OCI and get re-categorized as 2Ls. Firms are more likely to give them a second shot at an SA than hire them straight up. From the pure LL.Ms who didn't do a combined degree I've heard that TIP is a joke and a fairly large number end up at Big 4 accounting firms starting at 85K.

[prawnstar]

I talked to the Georgetown Tax LLM director in person about the job placement for the LLM program (got a big firm job lined up but I happened to run into her at an event and was curious). She said in the past most of their graduates ended up with Big 4 gigs, in-house placements at places like Exxon, and the IRS. A lot of people already had a job and were doing the program to enhance their skills. VERY FEW got biglaw from the program. The IRS isn't really hiring now, places like Exxon take literally 1 or 2 people, and the Big 4 pays between 80,000 to 100,000 depending on the region and office and you are a consultant, not really doing strict law work. Not worth it in my opion.

[PeanutHead]

I didn't realize it is shared

http://www.law.georgetown.edu/graduate/TIP.html

the people who make the JD + Tax LL.M are GULC work for them in Biglaw are those who declare it before 3L OCI and get re-categorized as 2L

Couldn't agree more.

[Anonymous User]

I didn't realize it is shared

http://www.law.georgetown.edu/graduate/TIP.html

I'm in the Securities LL.M program and they don't even pretend to have a recruitment process.

[Anonymous User]

Can you ask NYU what their tax LLM graduates do?

I know one person who did exactly what you're thinking of doing and it worked out for him -- he has just started at a firm. (He graduated CCN without a job; I'm not sure what his grades were like. Then did the NYU tax LLM.) But I don't know if he was just lucky or if most people in his position found a job.