How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

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bk1
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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby bk1 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:04 pm

If you want to be a good lawyer, you should be more worried about penis size and less worried about height.

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WhiteCochran
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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby WhiteCochran » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:07 pm

TheFriendlyBarber wrote:The Fonz runs Cravath?!

Image


This thread is now about famous lawyers and their celebrity doppelgängers.


Looks more like Barry Zuckercorn's doppelganger

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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby TheFriendlyBarber » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:11 pm

bk1 wrote:If you want to be a good lawyer, you should be more worried about penis size and less worried about height.


I suppose if he's short enough he can use his entire body as a penis.

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RVP11
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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby RVP11 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:16 pm

Wait, so being tall is beneficial for everything in life, but neither necessary nor sufficient for success?

Ya don't say, TLS. Ya don't say.

AriGoldButNicer
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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby AriGoldButNicer » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:20 pm

You don't need to be tall to be really good looking. You just can't be short.

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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:25 pm

I disagree about height being beneficial... I feel like short guys are insecure and therefore overcompensate in other areas to try and make up for it, for example being really aggressive or bitchy or working really hard in school and being a know-it-all... traits that can work to a lawyer's advantage. I sat next to an insufferable short guy in a 1L class and when I would tell my mom about him she said he had "short man syndrome." When you let your professional accomplishments affect your self esteem you are willing to work harder to get a satisfactory result.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_complex

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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby rinkrat19 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:35 pm

TheFriendlyBarber wrote:The Fonz runs Cravath?!

Image


This thread is now about famous lawyers and their celebrity doppelgängers.
No, the Fonz coaches the Tampa Bay Lightning.

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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby TheFriendlyBarber » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:06 pm

AriGoldButNicer wrote:You don't need to be tall to be really good looking. You just can't be short.


But what is "short"?

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bandenjamin
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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby bandenjamin » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:12 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
TheFriendlyBarber wrote:The Fonz runs Cravath?!

Image


This thread is now about famous lawyers and their celebrity doppelgängers.
No, the Fonz coaches the Tampa Bay Lightning.


The Fonz can do both...

If Omar Epps can star on House and Coach an NFL team, I'm pretty sure the Mr. Winkler can handle the Lightning and running Cravath.

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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby AriGoldButNicer » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:28 pm

TheFriendlyBarber wrote:
AriGoldButNicer wrote:You don't need to be tall to be really good looking. You just can't be short.


But what is "short"?

5'6 and under.


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erico
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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby erico » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:39 pm

just when i think tls can't get any more lame...

shmoo597
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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby shmoo597 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:00 pm

A survey of Fortune 500 CEO height in 2005 revealed that they were on average 6 ft 0 in (1.83 m) tall, which is approximately 2.5 inches (6.4 cm) taller than the average American man. 30% were 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m) tall or more; in comparison only 3.9% of the overall United States population is of this height.[11] Similar surveys have uncovered that less than 3% of CEOs were below 5 ft 7 in (1.70 m) in height. Ninety percent of CEOs are of above average height.[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_discrimination

"Our estimates suggest that if the average man of about 178 centimeters [5 feet 10 inches] gains an additional five centimeters [2 inches] in height, he would be able to earn an extra $950 per year - which is approximately equal to the wage gain from one extra year of labor market experience," said study co-author Andrew Leigh, an economist at the Australian National University.

Other studies in the United States and Britain put the extra earnings at nearly that much per inch.

"The truth is, tall people do make more money. They make $789 more per inch per year," says Arianne Cohen, author of "The Tall Book" (Bloomsbury USA, June, 2009).

http://www.livescience.com/5552-taller- ... money.html

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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby 03121202698008 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:02 pm

shmoo597 wrote:A survey of Fortune 500 CEO height in 2005 revealed that they were on average 6 ft 0 in (1.83 m) tall, which is approximately 2.5 inches (6.4 cm) taller than the average American man. 30% were 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m) tall or more; in comparison only 3.9% of the overall United States population is of this height.[11] Similar surveys have uncovered that less than 3% of CEOs were below 5 ft 7 in (1.70 m) in height. Ninety percent of CEOs are of above average height.[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_discrimination

"Our estimates suggest that if the average man of about 178 centimeters [5 feet 10 inches] gains an additional five centimeters [2 inches] in height, he would be able to earn an extra $950 per year - which is approximately equal to the wage gain from one extra year of labor market experience," said study co-author Andrew Leigh, an economist at the Australian National University.

Other studies in the United States and Britain put the extra earnings at nearly that much per inch.

"The truth is, tall people do make more money. They make $789 more per inch per year," says Arianne Cohen, author of "The Tall Book" (Bloomsbury USA, June, 2009).

http://www.livescience.com/5552-taller- ... money.html


Law ≠ CEO. The legal professions is a unique field...it is much more about your abilities and talents than anything else. The client isn't paying you $$$ because you're pretty. They want results.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:04 pm

shmoo597 wrote:"The truth is, tall people do make more money. They make $789 more per inch per year."

Average penis size is around 4.5-5 inches. Any info on how much more per inch people with big dicks make?
Last edited by MrPapagiorgio on Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mrloblaw
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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby mrloblaw » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:05 pm

blowhard wrote:Law ≠ CEO. The legal professions is a unique field...it is much more about your abilities and talents than anything else. The client isn't paying you $$$ because you're pretty. They want results.


No.

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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby 03121202698008 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:08 pm

mrloblaw wrote:
blowhard wrote:Law ≠ CEO. The legal professions is a unique field...it is much more about your abilities and talents than anything else. The client isn't paying you $$$ because you're pretty. They want results.


No.


You're free to disagree. It's more about your abilities than looks. Clients pay firms with lawyers from prestigious schools to CYA. Firms hire from prestigious schools to CYA and attract clients. I'm of course equating your abilities into school somewhat. But hot/tall at Cooley isn't overcoming median at T14. And between people at my school at least, the tall people fared no better or worse than the short. It's like LS admissions...it's an irrelevant factor in that if it is considered, it's a distant like 11th....compared to school rank, GPA, prior work experience, ability to sell yourself, confidence, etc.
Last edited by 03121202698008 on Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby mrloblaw » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:12 pm

blowhard wrote:
mrloblaw wrote:
blowhard wrote:Law ≠ CEO. The legal professions is a unique field...it is much more about your abilities and talents than anything else. The client isn't paying you $$$ because you're pretty. They want results.


No.


You're free to disagree. It's more about your abilities than looks. Clients pay firms with lawyers from prestigious schools to CYA. Firms hire from prestigious schools to CYA and attract clients.


I don't think looks are (that) relevant, but the average biglaw lawyer doesn't last long enough to display that he has more ability and talent than a mentally challenged chimpanzee. [O MAN THAT DOC REVIEW YOU DID WAS SO GOOD, BRO]

If you (1) win the biglaw lottery, and (2) dodge layoffs with the elusiveness of Justin Bieber at a Catholic priest convention, you just might get to display some of that ability and talent.

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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby 03121202698008 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:15 pm

mrloblaw wrote:
blowhard wrote:
mrloblaw wrote:
blowhard wrote:Law ≠ CEO. The legal professions is a unique field...it is much more about your abilities and talents than anything else. The client isn't paying you $$$ because you're pretty. They want results.


No.


You're free to disagree. It's more about your abilities than looks. Clients pay firms with lawyers from prestigious schools to CYA. Firms hire from prestigious schools to CYA and attract clients.


I don't think looks are (that) relevant, but the average biglaw lawyer doesn't last long enough to display that he has more ability and talent than a mentally challenged chimpanzee. [O MAN THAT DOC REVIEW YOU DID WAS SO GOOD, BRO]

If you (1) win the biglaw lottery, and (2) dodge layoffs with the elusiveness of Justin Bieber at a Catholic priest convention, you just might get to display some of that ability and talent.


First of all, the layoffs are way overexagerated. The total # laid off is minuscule compared to the total BigLaw people in those year classes. Most people leave voluntarily. And I wasn't necessarily referring to your ability at the firm, but more to your ability getting to LS and in LS.

Calling it a lottery is a little skewed as well, at least if you go to a decent school. Do you have any idea what the odds of winning the lottery are? It's more like, if you're successful at making a sale. In sales, many factors are outside your control and around 15-20% turn into a deal. (guessing at # but close to that.) I agree if you're at a T4 school hoping for a legal job in a major market...the odds are as bad as the lottery. If that's your situation though, the tiny impact of height isn't helping.
Last edited by 03121202698008 on Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

shmoo597
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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby shmoo597 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:17 pm

blowhard wrote:
Law ≠ CEO. The legal professions is a unique field...it is much more about your abilities and talents than anything else. The client isn't paying you $$$ because you're pretty. They want results.


Of course CEO =/= law, but the basic point still stands. Law is not so unique that these empirical facts don't apply; in fact, my instinct is that in some cases, this bias would even be exaggerated. A trial lawyer's physical appearance will have a huge impact on how he does in court. The bottom line is that all else being equal (this is important!), taller people tend to make more money and be more successful in business and life then shorter people. This should be obvious to anyone who attended high school.

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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby 03121202698008 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:19 pm

shmoo597 wrote:
blowhard wrote:
Law ≠ CEO. The legal professions is a unique field...it is much more about your abilities and talents than anything else. The client isn't paying you $$$ because you're pretty. They want results.


Of course CEO =/= law, but the basic point still stands. Law is not so unique that these empirical facts don't apply; in fact, my instinct is that in some cases, this bias would even be exaggerated. A trial lawyer's physical appearance will have a huge impact on how he does in court. The bottom line is that all else being equal (this is important!), taller people tend to make more money and be more successful in business and life then shorter people. This should be obvious to anyone who attended high school.


I agree that in general taller people make more money. I still don't think it translates enough to have an impact. However, I highly disagree that height has anything to do with effectiveness in court. Whether before a jury or not. Anyone who thinks so has clearly never spent much time there. Also, effect ≠ causation. Not even to mention that was a self-selected survey. People tend to over-exaggerate their height, income, etc. It is also linked to a bank, and it no longer exists. Who knows what it actually said or their methodologies. For all we know, their sample size was 20% and they did it at some swanky Big & Tall.
Last edited by 03121202698008 on Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mrloblaw
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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby mrloblaw » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:21 pm

blowhard wrote:
mrloblaw wrote:I don't think looks are (that) relevant, but the average biglaw lawyer doesn't last long enough to display that he has more ability and talent than a mentally challenged chimpanzee. [O MAN THAT DOC REVIEW YOU DID WAS SO GOOD, BRO]

If you (1) win the biglaw lottery, and (2) dodge layoffs with the elusiveness of Justin Bieber at a Catholic priest convention, you just might get to display some of that ability and talent.


First of all, the layoffs are way overexagerated. The total # laid off is minuscule compared to the total BigLaw people in those year classes. Most people leave voluntarily. And I wasn't necessarily referring to your ability at the firm, but more to your ability getting to LS and in LS.


Fair enough. Although that T14 acceptance and respectable grades still provide no more than a lottery ticket to play biglaw roulette. WLRK? Below-market NLJ 250? Total unemployment? Who knows?

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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby 03121202698008 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:24 pm

mrloblaw wrote:
blowhard wrote:
mrloblaw wrote:I don't think looks are (that) relevant, but the average biglaw lawyer doesn't last long enough to display that he has more ability and talent than a mentally challenged chimpanzee. [O MAN THAT DOC REVIEW YOU DID WAS SO GOOD, BRO]

If you (1) win the biglaw lottery, and (2) dodge layoffs with the elusiveness of Justin Bieber at a Catholic priest convention, you just might get to display some of that ability and talent.


First of all, the layoffs are way overexagerated. The total # laid off is minuscule compared to the total BigLaw people in those year classes. Most people leave voluntarily. And I wasn't necessarily referring to your ability at the firm, but more to your ability getting to LS and in LS.


Fair enough. Although that T14 acceptance and respectable grades still provide no more than a lottery ticket to play biglaw roulette. WLRK? Below-market NLJ 250? Total unemployment? Who knows?


Find a lottery with 50% odds and I'll play all day long. Hell, even 10% I'd play all day. And lottery implies none of your abilities impact the decision. I found being able to sell yourself to be super important. I agree that 1L grades are like a lottery though...and that certainly plays into it.
Last edited by 03121202698008 on Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby shmoo597 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:25 pm

blowhard wrote:I agree that in general taller people make more money. I still don't think it translates enough to have an impact. However, I highly disagree that height has anything to do with effectiveness in court. Whether before a jury or not. Anyone who thinks so has clearly never spent much time there. Also, effect ≠ causation.


You're completely wrong. Trial lawyers are very conscious of how they look and how they appear. Their role is to persuade, and a huge part of that is connecting with the jury, and a huge part of that is looking like someone the jury wants to connect with. That's why trial lawyers pay such close attention to their grooming, wardrobe, style, gestures, tone of voice, and general appearance. They can't control their height, but that doesn't mean that height is irrelevant to how a jury perceives them. If tall people are more successful in life generally (and they are), my instinct is that the effect is exaggerated in a courtroom where appearance is so central to winning.

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Re: How much does being 5'9 or below (male) hurt you in law?

Postby 03121202698008 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:27 pm

shmoo597 wrote:
blowhard wrote:
shmoo597 wrote:I agree that in general taller people make more money. I still don't think it translates enough to have an impact. However, I highly disagree that height has anything to do with effectiveness in court. Whether before a jury or not. Anyone who thinks so has clearly never spent much time there. Also, effect ≠ causation.


You're completely wrong. Trial lawyers are very conscious of how they look and how they appear. Their role is to persuade, and a huge part of that is connecting with the jury, and a huge part of that is looking like someone the jury wants to connect with. That's why trial lawyers pay such close attention to their grooming, wardrobe, style, gestures, tone of voice, and general appearance. They can't control their height, but that doesn't mean that height is irrelevant to how a jury perceives them. If tall people are more successful in life generally (and they are), my instinct is that the effect is exaggerated in a courtroom where appearance is so central to winning.


Tall people are more successful, that doesn't mean the rest of the population agrees with them. Maybe someone on the jury got beat up a lot in high school? Nor do I think most people can accurately judge height while they are seated and the subject isn't. Try taking a suspect description sometime. A 4-5" range is doing good. Also, FWIW many lawyers in real life don't go to court super polished. A family friend, who has won tons of awards, wears suits he gets at Goodwill to court. People connect with people like them. Most people are not 6' tall and wearing a $2K suit. Especially on the government/plaintiff side, you can't come off as some over-bearing force that is crushing the defendant. (There are studies, why the government rarely seats more than 2 attorneys at the table, etc.)
Last edited by 03121202698008 on Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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