Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

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Anonymous User
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Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:22 pm

Hey all,

I'm looking for some help here. I am a 2l with offers for next summer at K&E NY, STB NY, and Jones Day Dallas. I am interested primarily in litigation...

I am in Washington University in St. Louis. I have family in NY (both mine and wife's) although that's as much of a selling point as a turn off. The cost of living in Dallas is way cheaper and that means paying off student loans way sooner. Jones Day also has a program where its associates are lent to the prosecutor's office once a week for 9-12 months (i think in their 2-4 years or so) so that they can do misdemeanor jury trials. K&E NY has excellent litigation training.

I am from Memphis and love the South. I never really planned on living in NY and truthfully dont really want to. I did my undergrad there and vowed I would not live there after law school. Of course, now I dont know if I can turn down V10 NY Big Law. Would I be stupid for doing that? I think I'll love Dallas but I have no idea if my wife and I will want to be there forever. Will I have mobility coming from Jones Day Dallas?

What to do? Please help.

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RVP11
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby RVP11 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:55 pm

So you (1) want litigation, (2) don't like living in New York, (3) want to pay off student loans ASAP, and you (4) are married.

Don't force yourself to go somewhere just because of Vault rankings, man. If your wife is cool with Dallas, then this should be obvious, no?

Anonymous User
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:13 pm

Well it almost seems obvious, but I have a few worries. What if I get non-offered after the summer? Am I better off getting non-offered from a V10 NY firm or from Jones Day Dallas?

What if I want to switch markets in 5 years? Will I have the same mobility coming from Dallas as I would coming from NY?

What if I want to go to NY in 5 years because of family? Would I be totally precluded from doing so because I started in Dallas?

What if the economy continues to tank/plunges? Will I be better off in NY because those offices will be best positioned to weather the storm or will it not matter?

Also, while my salary would initially be the same at either place, and thus the balance tips in favor of Dallas because of cost of living, will my salary increase at the same rate? Will NY bonuses make up for the difference? Do Dallas firms even get bonuses?

Anonymous User
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:59 pm

Jones Day is one of the only major firms that didn't lay anybody off in 2008. Economically, I'd consider them relatively secure.

TheFriendlyBarber
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby TheFriendlyBarber » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:10 pm

I would ask Jones Day about their internal lateraling policy.

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deadpanic
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby deadpanic » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:25 pm

I have no opinion on any firm for you, but if you are from Memphis, I'd be hesitant to say you will automatically love Dallas. I have lived in Memphis for years and visited Dallas and they are a lot different.

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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:29 pm

OP here... I've visited Dallas a few times, and yes, thankfully, it is quite larger than Memphis. But it is certainly much more like "home" than New York. It still has the traditional southern charm that I'm accustomed to, and has residential neighborhoods. And being married, I think Dallas is a great place to raise a family.

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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:38 pm

Well it almost seems obvious, but I have a few worries. What if I get non-offered after the summer? Am I better off getting non-offered from a V10 NY firm or from Jones Day Dallas?

What if I want to switch markets in 5 years? Will I have the same mobility coming from Dallas as I would coming from NY?

What if I want to go to NY in 5 years because of family? Would I be totally precluded from doing so because I started in Dallas?

What if the economy continues to tank/plunges? Will I be better off in NY because those offices will be best positioned to weather the storm or will it not matter?

Also, while my salary would initially be the same at either place, and thus the balance tips in favor of Dallas because of cost of living, will my salary increase at the same rate? Will NY bonuses make up for the difference? Do Dallas firms even get bonuses?


1) If you get no-offered, you're equally screwed either way. Your chances of getting no-offered are greater at a Texas firm, as these firms do a little bit more of this. I wouldn't be overly concerned about this, though. It's not likely.

2) Probably not. But this depends upon the lateraling policies at Jones Day.

3) See above.

4) BigTex firms were arguably the most secure firms in the country through the economic downturn. There are lots of things that drive BigTex work that differ from what other big firms do.

5) Your salary won't increase at the same rate. NY bonuses won't make up for the differences in cost of living. Dallas firms go get bonuses.

Just to add - the cost of living differences are enormous. If that is a concern, then you should be aware of this. Outside of the absolute nicest places in Dallas, you can live well for very cheap. There's also no state income tax in Texas.

Anonymous User
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:39 pm

Anybody have any info on Jones Days' internal lateraling policy?

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Stanford4Me
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby Stanford4Me » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:43 pm

OP, I did my 1L summer with Jones Day Dallas and will be going back for my 2L summer. Feel free to PM if you want my thoughts about the office. Also, did they put you in contact with the mid-level Securities Lit. Associate who is a WUSTL alum?

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Old Gregg
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Jones Day is one of the only major firms that didn't lay anybody off in 2008. Economically, I'd consider them relatively secure.


They definitely stealthed people. And Jones Day doesn't pay bonuses FYI.

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Stanford4Me
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby Stanford4Me » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:24 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Jones Day is one of the only major firms that didn't lay anybody off in 2008. Economically, I'd consider them relatively secure.


They definitely stealthed people. And Jones Day doesn't pay bonuses FYI.

That's misleading.

They don't have lockstep pay raises, rather, they increase your pay to reflect a "traditional" lockstep pay increase and bonus. You don't receive a lump sum bonus, yeah, but you receive a "bonus" distributed evenly throughout the year.

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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:30 pm

Stanford4Me wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Jones Day is one of the only major firms that didn't lay anybody off in 2008. Economically, I'd consider them relatively secure.


They definitely stealthed people. And Jones Day doesn't pay bonuses FYI.

That's misleading.

They don't have lockstep pay raises, rather, they increase your pay to reflect a "traditional" lockstep pay increase and bonus. You don't receive a lump sum bonus, yeah, but you receive a "bonus" distributed evenly throughout the year.


Jones Day is notoriously black box-ish about their compensation structure.

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Old Gregg
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby Old Gregg » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:47 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Stanford4Me wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Jones Day is one of the only major firms that didn't lay anybody off in 2008. Economically, I'd consider them relatively secure.


They definitely stealthed people. And Jones Day doesn't pay bonuses FYI.

That's misleading.

They don't have lockstep pay raises, rather, they increase your pay to reflect a "traditional" lockstep pay increase and bonus. You don't receive a lump sum bonus, yeah, but you receive a "bonus" distributed evenly throughout the year.


Jones Day is notoriously black box-ish about their compensation structure.


Even accounting for the distribution of bonuses over the year, a lot of my buds at Jones Day tell me that their paychecks didn't increase on account of a bonus, so there's that.

Unless a firm is notorious for going above market, if its compensation system is at all subjective or black box, there's room to screw associates over. And when there's room, there's possibility. In this economy, where there's possibility, there's probability. I know tons of people dicked over by Jones Day, WilmerHale, Orrick, etc.

That's not to say that Jones Day Dallas pays less, when you take all factors in consideration, than Simpson. But it is to say that the firm isn't some angelic organization with your best interests in mind. They'll lay you off if they have to, and they'll dock your bonus or freeze your salary if they have to. And it's all to protect that PPP. And any firm will do that. It's just that Jones Day is more likely to do that because they're (a) not as strong as the other two firms, and (b) they already have a compensation and organizational system in place that allows for nice, stealthy layoffs and shitty comp treatment.

Anonymous User
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hey all,

I'm looking for some help here. I am a 2l with offers for next summer at K&E NY, STB NY, and Jones Day Dallas. I am interested primarily in litigation...

I am in Washington University in St. Louis. I have family in NY (both mine and wife's) although that's as much of a selling point as a turn off. The cost of living in Dallas is way cheaper and that means paying off student loans way sooner. Jones Day also has a program where its associates are lent to the prosecutor's office once a week for 9-12 months (i think in their 2-4 years or so) so that they can do misdemeanor jury trials. K&E NY has excellent litigation training.

I am from Memphis and love the South. I never really planned on living in NY and truthfully dont really want to. I did my undergrad there and vowed I would not live there after law school. Of course, now I dont know if I can turn down V10 NY Big Law. Would I be stupid for doing that? I think I'll love Dallas but I have no idea if my wife and I will want to be there forever. Will I have mobility coming from Jones Day Dallas?

What to do? Please help.


No brainer. Go to Kirkland if you want litigation. Get them on your resume, and if you hate NY/Kirkland after a few years, lateral somewhere else.

Anonymous User
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hey all,

I'm looking for some help here. I am a 2l with offers for next summer at K&E NY, STB NY, and Jones Day Dallas. I am interested primarily in litigation...

I am in Washington University in St. Louis. I have family in NY (both mine and wife's) although that's as much of a selling point as a turn off. The cost of living in Dallas is way cheaper and that means paying off student loans way sooner. Jones Day also has a program where its associates are lent to the prosecutor's office once a week for 9-12 months (i think in their 2-4 years or so) so that they can do misdemeanor jury trials. K&E NY has excellent litigation training.

I am from Memphis and love the South. I never really planned on living in NY and truthfully dont really want to. I did my undergrad there and vowed I would not live there after law school. Of course, now I dont know if I can turn down V10 NY Big Law. Would I be stupid for doing that? I think I'll love Dallas but I have no idea if my wife and I will want to be there forever. Will I have mobility coming from Jones Day Dallas?

What to do? Please help.


No brainer. Go to Kirkland if you want litigation. Get them on your resume, and if you hate NY/Kirkland after a few years, lateral somewhere else.

Yes, a no brainer for Kirkland NYC here . . .

Litigation: General Commercial: The Elite: New York
Band 1
Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP
Davis Polk & Wardwell LLP
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP
Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP & Affiliates
Sullivan & Cromwell LLP
Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz

Band 2
Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP
Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton LLP
Debevoise & Plimpton LLP
Kirkland & Ellis LLP
Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP

http://www.chambersandpartners.com/USA/Editorial/43206

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Stanford4Me
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby Stanford4Me » Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:31 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:Even accounting for the distribution of bonuses over the year, a lot of my buds at Jones Day tell me that their paychecks didn't increase on account of a bonus, so there's that.

Unless a firm is notorious for going above market, if its compensation system is at all subjective or black box, there's room to screw associates over. And when there's room, there's possibility. In this economy, where there's possibility, there's probability. I know tons of people dicked over by Jones Day, WilmerHale, Orrick, etc.

That's not to say that Jones Day Dallas pays less, when you take all factors in consideration, than Simpson. But it is to say that the firm isn't some angelic organization with your best interests in mind. They'll lay you off if they have to, and they'll dock your bonus or freeze your salary if they have to. And it's all to protect that PPP. And any firm will do that. It's just that Jones Day is more likely to do that because they're (a) not as strong as the other two firms, and (b) they already have a compensation and organizational system in place that allows for nice, stealthy layoffs and shitty comp treatment.


The thing I hate about anecdotal evidence (and the reason why anecdotal evidence isn't convincing evidence) is that there is evidence that goes both ways. I've talked to many associates, not only in the Dallas office, who are more than happy with their pay (I also think the "efficient capital markets" theory is applicable to law firms, though not so much in the past few years). In fact, there are many JD attorneys who received their "bonus" when they wouldn't have at other firms because of the billable hours requirement.

In the end, I think it comes down to what kind of pay structure you like. I personal like a system that is more merit-based, even if it is a non-disclosed system. Others enjoy the lockstep + bonus system. I don't know that there are any dominating arguments as to why one is better than the other.

I mainly just want to emphasize that I don't think JD is not robbing its associates of pay increases.
Last edited by Stanford4Me on Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:36 pm

I spoke with a number of Jones Day associates, since I was considering the firm. The notion that the "black box" system is merely a license to screw people over couldn't be more false. Of the people I talked to, everyone confirmed to me that:

1. They all made market rate or above, and we are talking about a relatively large sample size. Only one person had heard of someone getting a below-market raise, and he said the person who got it was truly undeserving of any raise at all
2. Jones Day does indeed give out bonuses, but they are added over the course of the entire next year (i.e. instead of getting a raise of 10K, plus a year-end bonus of 7,500, a 2nd year Jones Day associate will likely just have a 2nd year salary of 177.5 K. And they said that, since it is tied so little to billable hours, there are many people who hit below 2000 who were still given their full raises as such
3. People would be leaving in droves for other firms if people were systematically undercompensated (yet they have a surprisingly low turnover rate compared to other big firms)
4. No one would lateral in if they felt they were being undercompensated (yet they bring in a pretty high number of laterals)
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:37 pm

.

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Old Gregg
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby Old Gregg » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hey all,

I'm looking for some help here. I am a 2l with offers for next summer at K&E NY, STB NY, and Jones Day Dallas. I am interested primarily in litigation...

I am in Washington University in St. Louis. I have family in NY (both mine and wife's) although that's as much of a selling point as a turn off. The cost of living in Dallas is way cheaper and that means paying off student loans way sooner. Jones Day also has a program where its associates are lent to the prosecutor's office once a week for 9-12 months (i think in their 2-4 years or so) so that they can do misdemeanor jury trials. K&E NY has excellent litigation training.

I am from Memphis and love the South. I never really planned on living in NY and truthfully dont really want to. I did my undergrad there and vowed I would not live there after law school. Of course, now I dont know if I can turn down V10 NY Big Law. Would I be stupid for doing that? I think I'll love Dallas but I have no idea if my wife and I will want to be there forever. Will I have mobility coming from Jones Day Dallas?

What to do? Please help.


No brainer. Go to Kirkland if you want litigation. Get them on your resume, and if you hate NY/Kirkland after a few years, lateral somewhere else.

Yes, a no brainer for Kirkland NYC here . . .

Litigation: General Commercial: The Elite: New York
Band 1
Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP
Davis Polk & Wardwell LLP
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP
Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP & Affiliates
Sullivan & Cromwell LLP
Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz

Band 2
Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP
Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton LLP
Debevoise & Plimpton LLP
Kirkland & Ellis LLP
Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP


http://www.chambersandpartners.com/USA/Editorial/43206


1) If you think there's a substantive distinction between Band 1 and Band 2 for this, you're an idiot.
2) Related to 1, look at who else is Band 2: Boies.
3) While Simpson is definitely a great firm for litigation (though it was Band 2 last year. go figure), Kirkland does a much wider swath of litigation, with trial law in the firm's blood (just like Boies). Simpson is old Wall Street blue blood. The two firms couldn't be more different in atmosphere, focus, strategy, and structure.

kaiser
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby kaiser » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:16 pm

Not to mention that Kirkland is very highly regarded for its litigation training programs. In doing research about various litigation practices, I read in many places that Kirkland's training programs are the best.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:48 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hey all,

I'm looking for some help here. I am a 2l with offers for next summer at K&E NY, STB NY, and Jones Day Dallas. I am interested primarily in litigation...

I am in Washington University in St. Louis. I have family in NY (both mine and wife's) although that's as much of a selling point as a turn off. The cost of living in Dallas is way cheaper and that means paying off student loans way sooner. Jones Day also has a program where its associates are lent to the prosecutor's office once a week for 9-12 months (i think in their 2-4 years or so) so that they can do misdemeanor jury trials. K&E NY has excellent litigation training.

I am from Memphis and love the South. I never really planned on living in NY and truthfully dont really want to. I did my undergrad there and vowed I would not live there after law school. Of course, now I dont know if I can turn down V10 NY Big Law. Would I be stupid for doing that? I think I'll love Dallas but I have no idea if my wife and I will want to be there forever. Will I have mobility coming from Jones Day Dallas?

What to do? Please help.


No brainer. Go to Kirkland if you want litigation. Get them on your resume, and if you hate NY/Kirkland after a few years, lateral somewhere else.

Yes, a no brainer for Kirkland NYC here . . .

Litigation: General Commercial: The Elite: New York
Band 1
Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP
Davis Polk & Wardwell LLP
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP
Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP & Affiliates
Sullivan & Cromwell LLP
Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz

Band 2
Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP
Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton LLP
Debevoise & Plimpton LLP
Kirkland & Ellis LLP
Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP


http://www.chambersandpartners.com/USA/Editorial/43206


1) If you think there's a substantive distinction between Band 1 and Band 2 for this, you're an idiot.
2) Related to 1, look at who else is Band 2: Boies.
3) While Simpson is definitely a great firm for litigation (though it was Band 2 last year. go figure), Kirkland does a much wider swath of litigation, with trial law in the firm's blood (just like Boies). Simpson is old Wall Street blue blood. The two firms couldn't be more different in atmosphere, focus, strategy, and structure.

That post was mine - for some reason hit anon.

But great job analyzing what I wrote. Somebody said that Kirkland is a no brainer over Simpson. I'm saying that Kirkland is hardly a no brainer over Simpson since they're both great firms for litigation. For certain types of litigation, many people would prefer Simpson NYC to Kirkland NYC. I agree that Kirkland has a better reputation for litigation firm-wide, but this is understandable given that Simpson is very much a NYC-heavy firm. And these rankings indicate that STB competes just as well as Kirkland within NYC. I never argued that Simpson is better - merely that Kirkland is hardly a "no brainer."

The idiot is the person who doesn't read my post in the context it was written.

TheFriendlyBarber
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Re: Simpson Thacher NY, Kirkland NY, or Jones Day Dallas

Postby TheFriendlyBarber » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:00 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
1) If you think there's a substantive distinction between Band 1 and Band 2 for this, you're an idiot.
2) Related to 1, look at who else is Band 2: Boies.
3) While Simpson is definitely a great firm for litigation (though it was Band 2 last year. go figure), Kirkland does a much wider swath of litigation, with trial law in the firm's blood (just like Boies). Simpson is old Wall Street blue blood. The two firms couldn't be more different in atmosphere, focus, strategy, and structure.

That post was mine - for some reason hit anon.

But great job analyzing what I wrote. Somebody said that Kirkland is a no brainer over Simpson. I'm saying that Kirkland is hardly a no brainer over Simpson since they're both great firms for litigation. For certain types of litigation, many people would prefer Simpson NYC to Kirkland NYC. I agree that Kirkland has a better reputation for litigation firm-wide, but this is understandable given that Simpson is very much a NYC-heavy firm. And these rankings indicate that STB competes just as well as Kirkland within NYC. I never argued that Simpson is better - merely that Kirkland is hardly a "no brainer."

The idiot is the person who doesn't read my post in the context it was written.


Well put.




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