3L no job, is OK?

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romothesavior
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Re: 3L no job, is OK?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:44 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Also, that person referred to by the OP will likely get a JD required job. This website pretends as though people have to be above median to get a JD required job, and that's simply not even close to true in the real world (even in this economy). TLS.com is a good site for raw information, but people make too many blanket statements regarding average debt loads (OMG everyone owes $100,000+!!!!) and employment prospects (OMG everyone does doc review or is employed who doesn't get big/mid law, PI or fed/state/city gov!!!!).

Your generalizations are absurd, and you are also dead wrong on just about everything you've said ITT.

Something like 60% of grads found work in full-time, permanent, J.D.-required jobs, according to the latest data. Ignoring the fact that a decent chunk of these jobs objectively suck (low pay, high hours, little room for advancement, not much help on a resume), what do you think happens to the other 40%? They do contract work, or leave the field of law altogether. Not exactly a good outcome, even if you have low debt (and you are way, way, way off when you say that an extreme minority have more than 100k in debt. That is completely pulled from your ass.)

Will everything be okay for most law school grads? Well, even those in the worst situations aren't going to die of starvation or go to debtor's prison, and they'll probably get a job somewhere doing something, so I guess they'll be "okay" in that sense. But that doesn't mean they had an "okay" outcome. Their law school decision had a terrible outcome.

Sure, OP's friend may find a good job, but they have mediocre credentials and are way late in the ballgame to be getting on the job hunt. They need to get on it NOW.

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A'nold
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Re: 3L no job, is OK?

Postby A'nold » Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:45 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Also, that person referred to by the OP will likely get a JD required job. This website pretends as though people have to be above median to get a JD required job, and that's simply not even close to true in the real world (even in this economy). TLS.com is a good site for raw information, but people make too many blanket statements regarding average debt loads (OMG everyone owes $100,000+!!!!) and employment prospects (OMG everyone does doc review or is employed who doesn't get big/mid law, PI or fed/state/city gov!!!!).

Your generalizations are absurd, and you are also dead wrong on just about everything you've said ITT.

Something like 60% of grads found work in full-time, permanent, J.D.-required jobs, according to the latest data. Ignoring the fact that a decent chunk of these jobs objectively suck (low pay, high hours, little room for advancement, not much help on a resume), what do you think happens to the other 40%? They do contract work, or leave the field of law altogether. Not exactly a good outcome, even if you have low debt (and you are way, way, way off when you say that an extreme minority have more than 100k in debt. That is completely pulled from your ass.)

Will everything be okay for most law school grads? Well, even those in the worst situations aren't going to die of starvation or go to debtor's prison, and they'll probably get a job somewhere doing something, so I guess they'll be "okay" in that sense. But that doesn't mean they had an "okay" outcome. Their law school decision had a terrible outcome.

Sure, OP's friend may find a good job, but they have mediocre credentials and are way late in the ballgame to be getting on the job hunt. They need to get on it NOW.


Agree but I will come to aberzombie's defense on one thing (DEFINITELY not the law school debt, lol). People on this site do point to the statistics such as the bimodal distribution chart and make blanket assertions nearly as absurd as the pie in the sky optimists. You have to look at the 40% that get no law jobs or take temp doc review positions. It's not like employers take the names of all 60,000 or whatever law students in America, put them on pieces of paper and throw them up in the air, picking the students that land in certain spots. The vast majority of the 40% without jobs went to awful schools (there are at least 100 of these schools out there), did not network, got bad grades, or some or all of the above. The real issue always comes down to this site's obsession with the big law/shit law breakdown. People view "shitlaw" (which encompasses quite a bit of practice areas) as basically "getting no job." The reality is that they would basically /self if they had to take one of these "beneath them" kind of positions. Are there Cal Western median students who pass the bar (unlikely) and use connections or just dumb luck to get one of these jobs (more unlikely) and some top quarter students at, say, WUSTL that absolutely will not find any kind of legal job with great effort (very unlikely), sure. However, the numbers say otherwise.

Behold my skills as a fortune teller *puts fingers on temples and closes eyes*. A JDU troll will now begin arguing with me using anecdotes, a misinterpretation of the bimodal salary chart, and flooding this page with Craigslist ads of firms hiring attorneys for $12/hr paralegal jobs in NYC. Go.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: 3L no job, is OK?

Postby DoubleChecks » Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:46 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Also, that person referred to by the OP will likely get a JD required job. This website pretends as though people have to be above median to get a JD required job, and that's simply not even close to true in the real world (even in this economy). TLS.com is a good site for raw information, but people make too many blanket statements regarding average debt loads (OMG everyone owes $100,000+!!!!) and employment prospects (OMG everyone does doc review or is employed who doesn't get big/mid law, PI or fed/state/city gov!!!!).

Your generalizations are absurd, and you are also dead wrong on just about everything you've said ITT.

Something like 60% of grads found work in full-time, permanent, J.D.-required jobs, according to the latest data. Ignoring the fact that a decent chunk of these jobs objectively suck (low pay, high hours, little room for advancement, not much help on a resume), what do you think happens to the other 40%? They do contract work, or leave the field of law altogether. Not exactly a good outcome, even if you have low debt (and you are way, way, way off when you say that an extreme minority have more than 100k in debt. That is completely pulled from your ass.)

Will everything be okay for most law school grads? Well, even those in the worst situations aren't going to die of starvation or go to debtor's prison, and they'll probably get a job somewhere doing something, so I guess they'll be "okay" in that sense. But that doesn't mean they had an "okay" outcome. Their law school decision had a terrible outcome.

Sure, OP's friend may find a good job, but they have mediocre credentials and are way late in the ballgame to be getting on the job hunt. They need to get on it NOW.


Agree w/ romo here that, imo, aberzombie has destroyed all his e-cred (assuming he had any in the first place) with his "extreme minority of law students graduate with $100k+ in debt" comment lol.

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romothesavior
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Re: 3L no job, is OK?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:36 pm

I think I agree with you there a'nold. I am still confident that the vast majority of people in my law school class will find some kind of full-time, J.D.-required, permanent legal work, and I'll bet most people will be happy with it. It may not financially justify the decision to go to law school in the first place and certainly I wouldn't advocate someone going to law school at sticker just to get "some job," but most people at top tier schools will find a real legal job.

One other thing I'll add is that law students (and I'll include myself in this for sure) have a VERY short-term, narrow view of a legal career. Somehow if you start out making a certain amount or you start out at a certain place, you're stuck there. Not true at all, and I've even had to remind myself of this frequently when I get too down. I've met a number of attorneys 3-4 years out of law school who went to "shitlaw" firms at graduation, and they now make FAR more money (think: double or even more) what their former classmates in the bigger law firms make. And obviously with the recession, there are a lot of biglaw castoffs doing shitlaw. Where you start out is not necessarily where you'll end up, for good and for bad.

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A'nold
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Re: 3L no job, is OK?

Postby A'nold » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:15 pm

romothesavior wrote:I think I agree with you there a'nold. I am still confident that the vast majority of people in my law school class will find some kind of full-time, J.D.-required, permanent legal work, and I'll bet most people will be happy with it. It may not financially justify the decision to go to law school in the first place and certainly I wouldn't advocate someone going to law school at sticker just to get "some job," but most people at top tier schools will find a real legal job.

One other thing I'll add is that law students (and I'll include myself in this for sure) have a VERY short-term, narrow view of a legal career. Somehow if you start out making a certain amount or you start out at a certain place, you're stuck there. Not true at all, and I've even had to remind myself of this frequently when I get too down. I've met a number of attorneys 3-4 years out of law school who went to "shitlaw" firms at graduation, and they now make FAR more money (think: double or even more) what their former classmates in the bigger law firms make. And obviously with the recession, there are a lot of biglaw castoffs doing shitlaw. Where you start out is not necessarily where you'll end up, for good and for bad.

So true. People on this site are often so risk averse or so naive about the way things actually work in the "real world" that they make blanket assertions that rely on nothing but general, entry level statistics. I always laugh when someone is trying to show why law school is such a bad investment by demonstrating how 45k a year over 40 years does not match up to what that law grad could have made by working as a plumber which he knows, based upon his buddy plumber's company, make an average of 50k per year but has no student loan debt.

Trust me, I know what it is like facing the uphill battle that my loans create and no, I would not recommend someone that just needs "a job" to take out sticker at Seattle U. so they can "make a lot of money." Nor would I recommend someone take out sticker at a Cooley type school when they could only score a 142 on the LSAT and "it has been their dream to be a lawyer since they were little." Reality is reality, and that person is very unlikely to pass the bar, let alone find any kind of legal job.

Weird tidbit: A supervisor of mine was talking about an intern he once had that came from a really good school that he "couldn't remember the name of, something like.....Thomas Cordon....no.....Cooler Jefferson....no......well, it's a school in Michigan." Weird, huh? I wonder how many Cooley grads get away with talking up their school to people that have no idea what schools have what kind of reputation?




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