Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:41 pm

Bronte wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:I love it when people who have gotten ahead in life by checking boxes and being the most perfect, cookie-cutter students they can be struggle to figure out how to bring in business and become partner.


How do you envision this "bringing in business" working. You walk over to JPMorgan and ask to speak with Jamie Dimon?


How's your golf game? (serious question)

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Bronte
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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby Bronte » Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:53 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Bronte wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:I love it when people who have gotten ahead in life by checking boxes and being the most perfect, cookie-cutter students they can be struggle to figure out how to bring in business and become partner.


How do you envision this "bringing in business" working. You walk over to JPMorgan and ask to speak with Jamie Dimon?


How's your golf game? (serious question)


No.

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:01 pm

Bronte wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Bronte wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:I love it when people who have gotten ahead in life by checking boxes and being the most perfect, cookie-cutter students they can be struggle to figure out how to bring in business and become partner.


How do you envision this "bringing in business" working. You walk over to JPMorgan and ask to speak with Jamie Dimon?


How's your golf game? (serious question)


No.


1. You get staffed on a deal.
2. You go golfing with corp dudes involved in deal.
3. You don't suck at golf.
4. Corp Dude A says: "You should come golfing with Corp Dude B [who is NOT involved in your current deal] and I."
5. Talk with Corp Dude B about stuff.
6. ???
7. Profit.
Last edited by Julio_El_Chavo on Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:02 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Bronte wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Bronte wrote:
How do you envision this "bringing in business" working. You walk over to JPMorgan and ask to speak with Jamie Dimon?


How's your golf game? (serious question)


No.


1. You get staffed on a deal.
2. You go golfing with corp dudes involved in deal.
3. You don't suck at golf.
4. Corp Dude A says: "You should come golfing with Corp Dude B and I."
5. Talk with Corp Dude B about stuff
6. ???
7. Profit


1. You get staffed on a deal.
2. You go golfing with the analysts doing the bitchwork on the deal like you.
3. All of you get up-and-outed a year later.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:No.


You seem dumb.

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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:1. You get staffed on a deal.
2. You go golfing with the analysts doing the bitchwork on the deal like you.
3. All of you get up-and-outed a year later.


I wasn't talking about Skadden.

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rayiner
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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby rayiner » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:08 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:No.


You seem dumb.


You seem like you watch too much TV.

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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:No.


You seem dumb.


You seem like you watch too much TV.


I've closed deals with people from giant software companies before and that's been my experience.

How do you think it happens? Most successful businessmen didn't go to great b-schools or attend ivy league colleges, so they're not going to give a shit that you won a Cali award in your torts class and graduated with honors. They work with people they can relate to who have acceptable credentials and experience.

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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:18 pm

Client development in a smaller market or at a certain level of business that V10s don't participate in (like construction law or start-ups), it's going to matter how well you get along with businesspeople, golf, schmooze, whatever.

At a V10 working with huge corporations, it's not going to be like that. Clients choose a law firm primarily based on how well that choice is going to cover their ass if it all turns to shit (e.g. "we hired the best!") instead of how likable that lawyer seemed. If you think you have mad client development skills, don't take those skills to an NYC V10.

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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Client development in a smaller market or at a certain level of business that V10s don't participate in (like construction law or start-ups), it's going to matter how well you get along with businesspeople, golf, schmooze, whatever.

At a V10 working with huge corporations, it's not going to be like that. Clients choose a law firm primarily based on how well that choice is going to cover their ass if it all turns to shit (e.g. "we hired the best!") instead of how likable that lawyer seemed. If you think you have mad client development skills, don't take those skills to an NYC V10.


The question was: "how do you become a V10 partner?" Not: "who do big corps look for when they have big deals?" You become a V10 partner by having your own book of business. You don't get your own clients by serving as a V10 partner's bitch for 10 years. You have to get client contact one way or another.

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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby SarahKerrigan » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:38 pm

how much do big law partners usually make? how about mid law partners?

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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby MrAnon » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:52 pm

Based on my conversations with partners at CB's at CSM, etc:

At least within the V10 "bringing in business" isn't a matter of drumming up new clients, at least at the junior partner level.


Wrong. That's what they are telling you because they themselves don't have any business of their own. They are also the least powerful, most expendable partners in the firm, who have zero option to transition to another firm. No other firm will hire them because they offer nothing that a service partner at the new firm doesn't already offer. If they want to be big boys then they get in close with the head of a company or a big finance guy who can give them some business. In the meantime, they dont get full credit for any work they do for institutional clients. Half the credit goes to the relationship partner even if he sat on his ass all year.

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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:58 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Client development in a smaller market or at a certain level of business that V10s don't participate in (like construction law or start-ups), it's going to matter how well you get along with businesspeople, golf, schmooze, whatever.

At a V10 working with huge corporations, it's not going to be like that. Clients choose a law firm primarily based on how well that choice is going to cover their ass if it all turns to shit (e.g. "we hired the best!") instead of how likable that lawyer seemed. If you think you have mad client development skills, don't take those skills to an NYC V10.


The question was: "how do you become a V10 partner?" Not: "who do big corps look for when they have big deals?" You become a V10 partner by having your own book of business. You don't get your own clients by serving as a V10 partner's bitch for 10 years. You have to get client contact one way or another.


Partners at CSM, S&C, DPW, STB, etc, don't become partners by building a valuable book of business. The firms just aren't structured that way. They're big institutions that have institutional clients and drum up business through formal channels. Over time partners build up some of their own clients, but even then many don't have a lot of portable business. Their clients are the firm's clients.

Now, client contact is definitely important, but in a different way than you're suggesting. It's more about building excellent relationships with existing clients and having them ask for you to be staffed on your deals. This involves some schmoozing, but also technical skills and interpersonal skills. Spend some time actually talking to V10 partners. Look at the bios of the people recently promoted to partner. The business is much more sophisticated than your TV show/golf outing picture.

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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:02 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Client development in a smaller market or at a certain level of business that V10s don't participate in (like construction law or start-ups), it's going to matter how well you get along with businesspeople, golf, schmooze, whatever.

At a V10 working with huge corporations, it's not going to be like that. Clients choose a law firm primarily based on how well that choice is going to cover their ass if it all turns to shit (e.g. "we hired the best!") instead of how likable that lawyer seemed. If you think you have mad client development skills, don't take those skills to an NYC V10.


The question was: "how do you become a V10 partner?" Not: "who do big corps look for when they have big deals?" You become a V10 partner by having your own book of business. You don't get your own clients by serving as a V10 partner's bitch for 10 years. You have to get client contact one way or another.

I just... I can't... how do you not see that "what are clients looking for" is the other side of the "client development" coin?

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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:It's more about building excellent relationships with existing clients and having them ask for you to be staffed on your deals. This involves some schmoozing, but also technical skills and interpersonal skills. Spend some time actually talking to V10 partners. Look at the bios of the people recently promoted to partner. The business is much more sophisticated than your TV show/golf outing picture.


I agree with this 100% and I wasn't trying to oversimplify things. I was just illustrating ONE potential avenue for becoming partner that I think is universally effective, even in a V10: bringing in clients with very deep pockets and a large amount of business. The skills required to keep "firm clients" are probably the same exact skills required to develop new ones. The only difference is that firm clients cut you more slack than new clients if you suck at golf or rub them the wrong way.
Last edited by Julio_El_Chavo on Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:07 pm

MrAnon wrote:
Based on my conversations with partners at CB's at CSM, etc:

At least within the V10 "bringing in business" isn't a matter of drumming up new clients, at least at the junior partner level.


Wrong. That's what they are telling you because they themselves don't have any business of their own. They are also the least powerful, most expendable partners in the firm, who have zero option to transition to another firm. No other firm will hire them because they offer nothing that a service partner at the new firm doesn't already offer. If they want to be big boys then they get in close with the head of a company or a big finance guy who can give them some business. In the meantime, they dont get full credit for any work they do for institutional clients. Half the credit goes to the relationship partner even if he sat on his ass all year.


Some of the most powerful partners at CSM, STB, etc, have the least portable business. James Woolery wouldn't have been able to take his JPM business to another firm, for example. The relationship partner for IBM isn't going to take any business with him if he leaves CSM. This limits their mobility on one hand, but on the other hand these partners usually have reputations for tremendous expertise which gives them mobility. Of course, partners almost never leave these firms for others so it's really a moot point.

Your characterization probably makes sense at eat what you kill firms, but it's dramatically wrong for the old-line NYC lockstep firms.

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
Based on my conversations with partners at CB's at CSM, etc:

At least within the V10 "bringing in business" isn't a matter of drumming up new clients, at least at the junior partner level.


Wrong. That's what they are telling you because they themselves don't have any business of their own. They are also the least powerful, most expendable partners in the firm, who have zero option to transition to another firm. No other firm will hire them because they offer nothing that a service partner at the new firm doesn't already offer. If they want to be big boys then they get in close with the head of a company or a big finance guy who can give them some business. In the meantime, they dont get full credit for any work they do for institutional clients. Half the credit goes to the relationship partner even if he sat on his ass all year.


Some of the most powerful partners at CSM, STB, etc, have the least portable business. James Woolery wouldn't have been able to take his JPM business to another firm, for example. The relationship partner for IBM isn't going to take any business with him if he leaves CSM. This limits their mobility on one hand, but on the other hand these partners usually have reputations for tremendous expertise which gives them mobility. Of course, partners almost never leave these firms for others so it's really a moot point.

Your characterization probably makes sense at eat what you kill firms, but it's dramatically wrong for the old-line NYC lockstep firms.


Even the firms that are still considered "lockstep" have moved away considerably from the old lockstep mentality of pre-ITE.

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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:54 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
Wrong. That's what they are telling you because they themselves don't have any business of their own. They are also the least powerful, most expendable partners in the firm, who have zero option to transition to another firm. No other firm will hire them because they offer nothing that a service partner at the new firm doesn't already offer. If they want to be big boys then they get in close with the head of a company or a big finance guy who can give them some business. In the meantime, they dont get full credit for any work they do for institutional clients. Half the credit goes to the relationship partner even if he sat on his ass all year.


Some of the most powerful partners at CSM, STB, etc, have the least portable business. James Woolery wouldn't have been able to take his JPM business to another firm, for example. The relationship partner for IBM isn't going to take any business with him if he leaves CSM. This limits their mobility on one hand, but on the other hand these partners usually have reputations for tremendous expertise which gives them mobility. Of course, partners almost never leave these firms for others so it's really a moot point.

Your characterization probably makes sense at eat what you kill firms, but it's dramatically wrong for the old-line NYC lockstep firms.


Even the firms that are still considered "lockstep" have moved away considerably from the old lockstep mentality of pre-ITE.


The influence of the past decade and ITE on the V10 is quite a bit more complex than "movement away from lockstep towards eat-what-you kill." Yes, the institutional relationships have become weaker. That doesn't mean clients are now picking their lawyers based on their golf game. Clients have become much more sophisticated. They formally evaluate a number of firms and look for the ones that have the particular expertise they need. Firms have responded by increasing the focus on the firm's "brand" and beefing up the firm's formal business development units. This trend has definitely put a focus on super-stars, to the extent that the firm can sell their expertise in pitches, but these super-stars aren't the great schmoozers, they're the ones with superb technical and interpersonal skills.

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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:52 pm

I'm a naive 2L, so please critique and I won't be offended. I'm going to a V15, west coast office.

My plan is to bill reasonable hours my first 2 years (1900-2100ish), then go a bit harder in years 3-4. At that point, it seems like it's either time to gun for partner, or start focusing on finding something outside of the firm.

From what I've heard, you're most valuable to the firm when you're a 5th-8th year, doing almost-partner level work, but able to bill lower rates than the partner. From some people I've talked to, this seems to be when the real "grind" of BigLaw because your hours are far more valuable than the green 1st year. So it seems like you want to decide around the 4th year whether you want to gun for partner or not. But gunning for partner at this point might also open you up to more exit options in year 5-8 if you don't make partner.

Is any of this correct?

"Gunning for partner" just means doing the awesome things it takes to put yourself in contention to make partner. What that entails, I have really no clue.

tlstlstls73
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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby tlstlstls73 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:57 pm

ITT people who have never had a job ponder what it takes to be a Partner of a large organization.

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IAFG
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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:11 pm

tlstlstls73 wrote:ITT people who have never had a job ponder what it takes to be a Partner of a large organization.

What on earth makes you think the posters ITT have never had a job?

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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby tlstlstls73 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:15 pm

IAFG wrote:
tlstlstls73 wrote:ITT people who have never had a job ponder what it takes to be a Partner of a large organization.

What on earth makes you think the posters ITT have never had a job?


Because it's not rational to obsess about how to make partner if you haven't even started working as an associate. This conversation among law students is asinine. I'd be more curious about "how to be a good associate," than how to make partner.

EDIT: Your own point in the c/o 2013 is what I'm trying to get across:

"So much could change in the next year, I don't know how anyone could really argue one side or the other with any confidence."

If you think this about speculating whether we get no-offered next summer, how can you think speculating about how to achieve a certain (highly unlikely) career outcome 8+ years down the road makes any sense?
Last edited by tlstlstls73 on Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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IAFG
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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:18 pm

tlstlstls73 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
tlstlstls73 wrote:ITT people who have never had a job ponder what it takes to be a Partner of a large organization.

What on earth makes you think the posters ITT have never had a job?


Because it's not rational to obsess about how to make partner if you haven't even started working as an associate. This conversation among law students is asinine. I'd be more curious about "how to be a good associate," than how to make partner.

Ah, you mean, "had a job as an associate."

tlstlstls73
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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby tlstlstls73 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:19 pm

IAFG wrote:
tlstlstls73 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
tlstlstls73 wrote:ITT people who have never had a job ponder what it takes to be a Partner of a large organization.

What on earth makes you think the posters ITT have never had a job?


Because it's not rational to obsess about how to make partner if you haven't even started working as an associate. This conversation among law students is asinine. I'd be more curious about "how to be a good associate," than how to make partner.

Ah, you mean, "had a job as an associate."


Sure. What other job prepares you to make partner?

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IAFG
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Re: Is this the right way of making partner at a V10?

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:20 pm

Well that's not what you said, and I am sure plenty of people ITT have had a chance to see how to get ahead at other enterprises.




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