Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:04 pm

Lawquacious wrote:Assuming OP is not simply trolling--which is an extremely questionable assumption on TLS--I fail to see what purpose the proposed evaluation has given that it sounds like decision has already been made. This could have been a good thing to ask prior to making a decision, but I really fail to see the point currently--hence I think the thread does tend to come off as either a subtle brag or troll or both.


I haven't submitted my signed letter. Honestly, I'm still potentially entertaining Skadden because I want to lateral out of NY into a satellite office after a couple of years, and they have the best satellite offices in key regions (DC, NorCal, SoCal) as well as a public M&A practice that seems second only to Wachtell.. S&C is out though.

A key question I have is whether or not specializing in public M&A vs. PE M&A will change my exit options and whether Skadden's satellite office advantage over STB would make it a better choice despite the fact that I disliked the culture/people. I'm willing to bear a sub-optimal culture/fit if it would better my exit options.

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:16 am

My understanding is that lateralling within Skadden is not generally as easy as it is at other firms, mainly because the different Skadden offices cultivate their own strength and in many ways their own characters. (I had a CB with Skadden DC, and their attorneys spent an enormous chunk of the interviews badmouthing Skadden NY, which I thought was weird.)

Also, made basically the same choice, not regretting it.

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:My understanding is that lateralling within Skadden is not generally as easy as it is at other firms, mainly because the different Skadden offices cultivate their own strength and in many ways their own characters. (I had a CB with Skadden DC, and their attorneys spent an enormous chunk of the interviews badmouthing Skadden NY, which I thought was weird.)

Also, made basically the same choice, not regretting it.


That was a big consideration in favor of Skadden -- the strength of its satellite offices. Interesting to hear that lateraling is difficult there, but not terribly surprising. It seems they treat their associates like shit.

Also, do you know how difficult it is to lateral to STB's domestic satellite offices? I've heard mixed things.

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:My understanding is that lateralling within Skadden is not generally as easy as it is at other firms, mainly because the different Skadden offices cultivate their own strength and in many ways their own characters. (I had a CB with Skadden DC, and their attorneys spent an enormous chunk of the interviews badmouthing Skadden NY, which I thought was weird.)

Also, made basically the same choice, not regretting it.


That was a big consideration in favor of Skadden -- the strength of its satellite offices. Interesting to hear that lateraling is difficult there, but not terribly surprising. It seems they treat their associates like shit.

Also, do you know how difficult it is to lateral to STB's domestic satellite offices? I've heard mixed things.

I summered at a Skadden satellite and 2 NYC associates lateralled in during the summer program. Maybe this is less frequent than other firms (I have no basis for comparison) but it certainly did not seem like it was difficult to do.

Also, Skadden gets shit on TLS but the associates at my offices seemed pretty happy.

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:59 am

K&E is in Chicago and does mid-market PE deals with a shark tank free-market system that favors fellaters.


1) In this economy, the mega-PE deals that Simpson specializes in are the first to go south. Consider that there hasn't yet been a +$7 billion PE buyout since the economic crisis began. In the meanwhile, the middle market is thriving. And there's more responsibility for juniors, since the deal teams are correspondingly smaller.
2) K&E's private equity team prowess is pretty evenly split between Chicago and NY, and some of their top fund formation partners are in NY.
3) If you think the environment is "shark tank," you're dumb.
4) Every system favors fellaters.


But all in all, I really want you to choose STB, since I can't stand you.

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Lawquacious wrote: [Skadden has] a public M&A practice that seems second only to Wachtell.. S&C is out though.


FYI, that's really far from the truth. I bet you think Jones Day has a really good M&A practice because they do a lot of deals, too... From talking to both partners at top firms and high-up bankers, there is a distinct step-down between Wachtell, a small step-down to C/S, and a larger step-down to Skadden as to the complexity of the public deals they are given...

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby SweetnessUVA » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Lawquacious wrote: [Skadden has] a public M&A practice that seems second only to Wachtell.. S&C is out though.


FYI, that's really far from the truth. I bet you think Jones Day has a really good M&A practice because they do a lot of deals, too... From talking to both partners at top firms and high-up bankers, there is a distinct step-down between Wachtell, a small step-down to C/S, and a larger step-down to Skadden as to the complexity of the public deals they are given...


Same poster - and there's another distinct step down from Skadden to STB as to public deals.

Sure, STB dominates in private equity fund formation and private m&a. But just so you know, whether this matters, there are zero exit options to the finance side of PE... (This surprised me, and I don't know how much it matters to you, but it's absolutely true.)

(Disclaimer: I had offers from all these firms discussing, went on second visits to all, and asked really pointed questions. I also talked with partners at GS. I was surprised by these results, but they're straight from the horse's mouth.)

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:23 pm

SweetnessUVA wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Lawquacious wrote: [Skadden has] a public M&A practice that seems second only to Wachtell.. S&C is out though.


FYI, that's really far from the truth. I bet you think Jones Day has a really good M&A practice because they do a lot of deals, too... From talking to both partners at top firms and high-up bankers, there is a distinct step-down between Wachtell, a small step-down to C/S, and a larger step-down to Skadden as to the complexity of the public deals they are given...


Same poster - and there's another distinct step down from Skadden to STB as to public deals.

Sure, STB dominates in private equity fund formation and private m&a. But just so you know, whether this matters, there are zero exit options to the finance side of PE... (This surprised me, and I don't know how much it matters to you, but it's absolutely true.)

(Disclaimer: I had offers from all these firms discussing, went on second visits to all, and asked really pointed questions. I also talked with partners at GS. I was surprised by these results, but they're straight from the horse's mouth.)


was in a similar position and can say the same thing. i asked folks at STB about exit options, no one is really exiting to the finance side of PE. but this is not a reason to say no to simpson, as no lawyers from any firm are moving to the finance side of PE and HF (even at wachtell, you see plenty go into banking but i've yet to hear of one getting into a PE/HF). surprisingly, the people at simpson aren't even more likely to go in-house at a PE, according to one senior associate i spoke to. he said exit options were pretty typical - its certainly not like they all flock to PE shops. from the sound of it, it looks like the name will open up pretty much typical doors as the rest of the v5. at that level its gonna come down to individual network, practice area, economic conditions, and luck.

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:14 pm

I really need to find out if this one person I know is going to STB, because if they are not the OP and there are just two people like this in the world, I will be the tiniest bit sadder.

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:14 pm

Here is some general advice to anyone trying to figure out what offer to accept.
Steps to choosing from your V20 offers:
1. Did the firm do significant layoffs, deferrals, or no-offers a few years ago?
-If yes, remove that firm from your list.
2. Do you have a very specific practice area that you think you want to do?
-If yes, remove firms from your list that don't do any or much of that sort of work.
3. Use your own experiences (from office visits, talking to associates, etc) combined with widely available information on the cultures of different firms to pick what firm to accept an offer at. Information online about firm cultures is not perfect, but is accurate enough to be useful.

Trying to make small distinctions in the strength of practice areas is a terrible idea. It will have almost no relevance to your experience as an associate or your exit options. Exit options among lawyers working in a particular practice area at V20 firms are basically the same. Much more important to your career is whether you can stand working at your firm.

Also, a lot of law students/young lawyers have dreams of jumping into finance and getting rich. Unless you have previous i-banking or other highly regarded finance experience (PE, HF, VC), your chances of making such a switch are very low.

Cliff notes: Try to pick a firm that you will be the least miserable working for, rather than making useless distinctions between firms that all do similar work and give you similar exit options.

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:18 pm

I know someone that chose a V50 over STB so there.

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:50 pm

SweetnessUVA wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Lawquacious wrote: [Skadden has] a public M&A practice that seems second only to Wachtell.. S&C is out though.


FYI, that's really far from the truth. I bet you think Jones Day has a really good M&A practice because they do a lot of deals, too... From talking to both partners at top firms and high-up bankers, there is a distinct step-down between Wachtell, a small step-down to C/S, and a larger step-down to Skadden as to the complexity of the public deals they are given...


Same poster - and there's another distinct step down from Skadden to STB as to public deals.

Sure, STB dominates in private equity fund formation and private m&a. But just so you know, whether this matters, there are zero exit options to the finance side of PE... (This surprised me, and I don't know how much it matters to you, but it's absolutely true.)

(Disclaimer: I had offers from all these firms discussing, went on second visits to all, and asked really pointed questions. I also talked with partners at GS. I was surprised by these results, but they're straight from the horse's mouth.)


So which firm did you pick?

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Here is some general advice to anyone trying to figure out what offer to accept.
Steps to choosing from your V20 offers:
1. Did the firm do significant layoffs, deferrals, or no-offers a few years ago?
-If yes, remove that firm from your list.
2. Do you have a very specific practice area that you think you want to do?
-If yes, remove firms from your list that don't do any or much of that sort of work.
3. Use your own experiences (from office visits, talking to associates, etc) combined with widely available information on the cultures of different firms to pick what firm to accept an offer at. Information online about firm cultures is not perfect, but is accurate enough to be useful.

Trying to make small distinctions in the strength of practice areas is a terrible idea. It will have almost no relevance to your experience as an associate or your exit options. Exit options among lawyers working in a particular practice area at V20 firms are basically the same. Much more important to your career is whether you can stand working at your firm.

Also, a lot of law students/young lawyers have dreams of jumping into finance and getting rich. Unless you have previous i-banking or other highly regarded finance experience (PE, HF, VC), your chances of making such a switch are very low.

Cliff notes: Try to pick a firm that you will be the least miserable working for, rather than making useless distinctions between firms that all do similar work and give you similar exit options.



This. There are a ton of fired/laid-off bankers and traders out there looking for work. It amazes me how many law school students still hold on to this pipe dream.

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:12 pm

i just think your a tool, is that ok?

I mean honestly, reading this sounded to me like the following: "I have this really expensive gold necklace, but i also have this really expensive diamond necklace, and I also have this really expensive gold and diamond necklace. Do you guys think my decision to wear the gold necklace tonight was ok????"

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby rayiner » Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Nicholasnickynic wrote:
Thats funny, because people that are billing 700-900 hours more than you while working at Wachtell take solace in the fact that are not working at a shit-heap like STB.


I'm still not totally convinced that working at Wachtell would, by itself, provide numerous more exit options vs. another V5 (or STB), given the heavy self-selection that goes on and the level of talented people working there.


People work at Wachtell because you have a decent chance of making partner and even if you leave after 5 years you'll have earned almost half a million more in bonuses than your classmate who went to CSM/S&C/DPW/STB.

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:Assuming OP is not simply trolling--which is an extremely questionable assumption on TLS--I fail to see what purpose the proposed evaluation has given that it sounds like decision has already been made. This could have been a good thing to ask prior to making a decision, but I really fail to see the point currently--hence I think the thread does tend to come off as either a subtle brag or troll or both.


I haven't submitted my signed letter. Honestly, I'm still potentially entertaining Skadden because I want to lateral out of NY into a satellite office after a couple of years, and they have the best satellite offices in key regions (DC, NorCal, SoCal) as well as a public M&A practice that seems second only to Wachtell.. S&C is out though.

A key question I have is whether or not specializing in public M&A vs. PE M&A will change my exit options and whether Skadden's satellite office advantage over STB would make it a better choice despite the fact that I disliked the culture/people. I'm willing to bear a sub-optimal culture/fit if it would better my exit options.


STB's silicon valley office is great in PE M&A.

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:i just think your a tool, is that ok?

I mean honestly, reading this sounded to me like the following: "I have this really expensive gold necklace, but i also have this really expensive diamond necklace, and I also have this really expensive gold and diamond necklace. Do you guys think my decision to wear the gold necklace tonight was ok????"


Except it's not like this at all. It's: "I've got this choice between several good places to work, but none of them are a golden ticket and I'm worried about my career down the line and I was wondering if you guys think my decision was ok?"

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i just think your a tool, is that ok?

I mean honestly, reading this sounded to me like the following: "I have this really expensive gold necklace, but i also have this really expensive diamond necklace, and I also have this really expensive gold and diamond necklace. Do you guys think my decision to wear the gold necklace tonight was ok????"


Except it's not like this at all. It's: "I've got this choice between several good places to work, but none of them are a golden ticket and I'm worried about my career down the line and I was wondering if you guys think my decision was ok?"

if these arent the golden ticket of lawschool, then what is? Don't make it like your situation is just "good." There are tons of people in great schools who couldnt get v100, and many many more who couldnt get a job, period.

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i just think your a tool, is that ok?

I mean honestly, reading this sounded to me like the following: "I have this really expensive gold necklace, but i also have this really expensive diamond necklace, and I also have this really expensive gold and diamond necklace. Do you guys think my decision to wear the gold necklace tonight was ok????"


Except it's not like this at all. It's: "I've got this choice between several good places to work, but none of them are a golden ticket and I'm worried about my career down the line and I was wondering if you guys think my decision was ok?"

if these arent the golden ticket of lawschool, then what is? Don't make it like your situation is just "good." There are tons of people in great schools who couldnt get v100, and many many more who couldnt get a job, period.


What makes you think there are any golden tickets in law school? These are jobs, ones where most people will leave within 3-4 years, mostly by choice but sometimes involuntarily.

Sure there are plenty of people in law school who couldn't get any job. So what? Why does that mean that someone deciding between V10 firms shouldn't solicit feedback on their decision?

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:10 pm

I was looking for a douchier thread but couldn't find "Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 including Wachtell"

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:18 pm

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Nicholasnickynic wrote:
Thats funny, because people that are billing 700-900 hours more than you while working at Wachtell take solace in the fact that are not working at a shit-heap like STB.


I'm still not totally convinced that working at Wachtell would, by itself, provide numerous more exit options vs. another V5 (or STB), given the heavy self-selection that goes on and the level of talented people working there.


People work at Wachtell because you have a decent chance of making partner and even if you leave after 5 years you'll have earned almost half a million more in bonuses than your classmate who went to CSM/S&C/DPW/STB.


After taxes, that isn't as great. Not nearly as great as having 2-3 more hours of free time per day on a schedule that already has you working 12 hours a day.

And partners at Wachtell work just as hard as associates. The "prize" of partner is basically never having a family life ever.

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Nicholasnickynic wrote:
Thats funny, because people that are billing 700-900 hours more than you while working at Wachtell take solace in the fact that are not working at a shit-heap like STB.


I'm still not totally convinced that working at Wachtell would, by itself, provide numerous more exit options vs. another V5 (or STB), given the heavy self-selection that goes on and the level of talented people working there.


People work at Wachtell because you have a decent chance of making partner and even if you leave after 5 years you'll have earned almost half a million more in bonuses than your classmate who went to CSM/S&C/DPW/STB.


After taxes, that isn't as great. Not nearly as great as having 2-3 more hours of free time per day on a schedule that already has you working 12 hours a day.


Say $300k extra in the bank after taxes? Even with a low rate of return that's an extra $1,000 per month in your pocket for the rest of your life. Or college tuition for two kids. Or an extra $2m in the bank at retirement.

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Say $300k extra in the bank after taxes? Even with a low rate of return that's an extra $1,000 per month in your pocket for the rest of your life. Or college tuition for two kids. Or an extra $2m in the bank at retirement.


I rather work 2-3 hours less per day and have some semblance of a life in my 20s than work like a slave until 30 to have an additional 300k. Different strokes, I guess.

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Say $300k extra in the bank after taxes? Even with a low rate of return that's an extra $1,000 per month in your pocket for the rest of your life. Or college tuition for two kids. Or an extra $2m in the bank at retirement.


I rather work 2-3 hours less per day and have some semblance of a life in my 20s than work like a slave until 30 to have an additional 300k. Different strokes, I guess.


The Avery survey suggested 70 hours/week at Wachtell versus ~60 at the other V10. That's 10 hours more per week over 50 weeks, or about 500 hours more per year. Wachtell bonus this year for first years was 45% on $165k salary = $239k total comp. Cravath was $15k on $160k salary = $175k total comp, or $65k less. That's $130 per hour of extra work. Even if we assume that the Avery figures are off and WLRK associates work 1,000 more hours per year, that's still $65/hour.

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Re: Evaluate why I chose STB over rest of V10 sans Wachtell

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Say $300k extra in the bank after taxes? Even with a low rate of return that's an extra $1,000 per month in your pocket for the rest of your life. Or college tuition for two kids. Or an extra $2m in the bank at retirement.


I rather work 2-3 hours less per day and have some semblance of a life in my 20s than work like a slave until 30 to have an additional 300k. Different strokes, I guess.


The Avery survey suggested 70 hours/week at Wachtell versus ~60 at the other V10. That's 10 hours more per week over 50 weeks, or about 500 hours more per year. Wachtell bonus this year for first years was 45% on $165k salary = $239k total comp. Cravath was $15k on $160k salary = $175k total comp, or $65k less. That's $130 per hour of extra work. Even if we assume that the Avery figures are off and WLRK associates work 1,000 more hours per year, that's still $65/hour.


That Avery survey is old, and I have confirmed that corporate associates bill 2700-3000 hours.

Also, that's a 65k pre-tax differential which is only 37k after tax at 43%. The difference is around $45/hr, but you'd be working into your 14th-16th hours for that extra $45/hr.




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