You guys deserve better.

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JohnHopkinsMD
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:54 pm

You guys deserve better.

Postby JohnHopkinsMD » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:34 pm

Hello Board,

After considering a career in Intellectual Property Litigation, my bother's current employment situation has made me thankful I decided to pursue a career in Medicine instead of matriculating into a Law School despite my competitive statistics.

My brother is a third year Law Student at New York University School of Law and as of right now has no idea what he will be doing after graduation. He is top 50%(at the median line) and completely struck out last year.

This is ridiculous for the 6th ranked school in what is perceived to be such a prestigious profession.

My brother, and many of you intellectually brilliant members on this forum deserve better than to work your asses off to get near perfect grand point averages, study til the break of dawn to break 170 on the LSAT, only to be left with 200K+ debt and no job.

You guys do not deserve this, and I press you all to not matriculate in Law School. Obviously this applies to the 0L's who are looking at the board wondering what their career prospects look like. Let me tell you: THEY DO NOT LOOK GOOD.

Please. You guys are all very smart and deserve better than this.

Major in Engineering, become an Engineer, and get your Masters in Business Administration later down the road.

Major in Business or Finance. If you are not at an elite Undergraduate Business School, try to transfer into one. Become a Business Analyst or Investment Banker and continue to climb up the Corporate ladder with a Masters in Business Administration later down the road.

Major in Computer Science. The possibilities are endless with this degree.

Complete Pre-Medicine requirements and pursue a career in the Medical field. It is what I am currently doing. Many of my classmates also considered Law School at one time or another but quickly decided against it for the same reason why many of you should as well. I am aware that the process takes longer, but I can guarantee you that I know alot of Physicians in residency making more than new Law School graduates.

Whatever you do, DO NOT PURSUE A CAREER IN LAW UNLESS YOU GET A HUGE SCHOLARSHIP AT A TOP SCHOOL! Even if you get into a top school, it does not mean you will get a job. The Legal Profession for the time being is dead. If you are really set on law school, then major in something during undergraduate studies that can grant you employment if(and probably when) you fail to receive employment or get a job that is enough for McDonalds and School Loan Repayment.

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Tom Joad
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Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby Tom Joad » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:38 pm

I am not sure if you are trolling with this perfectly believable information. :?:

I guess a person has to pursue something they think they will like in the end and still give them a decent chance at a nice living. If a person has decent offers in the T14 it has always been conventional wisdom that law school can be a success.

JohnHopkinsMD
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:54 pm

Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby JohnHopkinsMD » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:42 pm

Tom Joad wrote:I am not sure if you are trolling with this perfectly believable information. :?:

I guess a person has to pursue something they think they will like in the end and still give them a decent chance at a nice living. If a person has decent offers in the T14 it has always been conventional wisdom that law school can be a success.


I don't know what motive I would have in "trolling".

And proceed with caution. If those "decent offers" are substantial enough that it will not be a death sentence if worst comes to worst, then by all means proceed with what you think you will like in the end. But I reiterate: Proceed with caution.

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Tom Joad
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Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby Tom Joad » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:50 pm

Sorry if you felt I was accusing you of anything. This board is notorious for posters claiming either nothing good can come out of law school or everybody who graduates any law school is a millionaire. Proceed with caution is not the usual discourse.

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Pato_09
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Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby Pato_09 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:51 pm

What about the candidates that have a 160+ starting salary at NYU? (which is a high percentage) Most likely, your brother does not have an offer because he did not work on his interview skills. There is more than just getting a high LSAT/GPA to be a good lawyer.

And nobody is entitled to a 160+ starting salary, even if you come from NYU, you have to earn it.
Last edited by Pato_09 on Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:54 pm

There are easier ways to troll NYU students: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q6KAg6qEGY

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Bildungsroman
Posts: 5548
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:42 pm

Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:56 pm

Another bored scamblogger posing as someone else.

JohnHopkinsMD
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:54 pm

Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby JohnHopkinsMD » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:56 pm

I feel bad for the legal profession and as a result, anyone who pursues a career in it. It is a very intellectually prestigious career and a great part of our society. People who graduate from great colleges are extremely smart people, which is why I say they deserve better. Lawyers deserve the big bucks(well alot of them...) but its just a sad fact that alot of law school graduates will simply not live the life that they deserve.

JohnHopkinsMD
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:54 pm

Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby JohnHopkinsMD » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:58 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:Another bored scamblogger posing as someone else.


I am simply giving caution. No reason to make such accusations. It's people like you who give lawyers a bad name when in reality lawyers are extremely talented and respectable professionals.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273135
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:58 pm

Majority of people I know at NYU at median seem to be doing just fine (then again, this year things are likely going better than last, and obviously much better than 2 years ago). Your brother is definitely the exception. Sorry to hear about his situation, but he will absolutely be fine as long as he stays proactive when mid-size and smaller firms start hiring. A median student at a T6 school likely will not remain unemployed for long, assuming he doesn't throw in the towel.

lawschoolgrapedme
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:12 pm

Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby lawschoolgrapedme » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:59 pm

So, I am a transfer student to CCN from a top 25. I have a SA lined up at a v5, so my decision to transfer was a huge improvement. I speak to people at my old school, and it looks like this (or at least that is what I have been told by my friends who remained):

top 5% = got something, probably v50-100
top 10% = better be mr. personality
family connections = good
10-25% = pray to God
Outside top 25% = bread lines

This is really bleak, considering roughly 80%, or 200 people will not graduate with a job. However, I do think there is still promise at the top schools from whom big law firms are accustomed to hiring from. Median at NYU should have something...there is an untold story there. No offense to OP

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theavrock
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Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby theavrock » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:00 pm

JohnHopkinsMD wrote:Hello Board,


My brother, and many of you intellectually brilliant members on this forum deserve better than to work your asses off to get near perfect grand point averages, study til the break of dawn to break 170 on the LSAT, only to be left with 200K+ debt and no job.
.


John Hopkins MD and you miss something that simple? Troll on...

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JusticeHarlan
Posts: 1434
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby JusticeHarlan » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:03 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:There are easier ways to troll NYU students: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q6KAg6qEGY

Dear God, I hate hippies.

JohnHopkinsMD
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:54 pm

Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby JohnHopkinsMD » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:04 pm

I do not know anything else about his situation other than the fact that he is roughly at median at NYU. Like people have stated, many do make it worth while. But like I said, going without a substantial scholarship a 50/50 200k risk

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Bildungsroman
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Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:05 pm

JohnHopkinsMD wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:Another bored scamblogger posing as someone else.


I am simply giving caution. No reason to make such accusations. It's people like you who give lawyers a bad name when in reality lawyers are extremely talented and respectable professionals.

You'll need a more successful flame than this. Create another account and actually try to create a plausible background next time.

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Hippononymous
Posts: 292
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:11 pm

Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby Hippononymous » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:06 pm

:roll:

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bjsesq
TLS Poet Laureate
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Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby bjsesq » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:07 pm

4.5/10

JohnHopkinsMD
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:54 pm

Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby JohnHopkinsMD » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:12 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
JohnHopkinsMD wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:Another bored scamblogger posing as someone else.


I am simply giving caution. No reason to make such accusations. It's people like you who give lawyers a bad name when in reality lawyers are extremely talented and respectable professionals.

You'll need a more successful flame than this. Create another account and actually try to create a plausible background next time.


What did I say to personally offend you in any way? Very immature of you.

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Gettingstarted1928
Posts: 407
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:45 pm

Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby Gettingstarted1928 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Majority of people I know at NYU at median seem to be doing just fine (then again, this year things are likely going better than last, and obviously much better than 2 years ago). Your brother is definitely the exception. Sorry to hear about his situation, but he will absolutely be fine as long as he stays proactive when mid-size and smaller firms start hiring. A median student at a T6 school likely will not remain unemployed for long, assuming he doesn't throw in the towel.



So you think the market is better than it was two years ago? Not being facetious, BTW - I'm a 1L and have been wondering if things have been getting better or worse.

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MrPapagiorgio
Posts: 1747
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:36 am

Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:19 pm

If another suggestion was to get a job at American Eagle or Target and move up the ranks, I would have said this was an MTal alt.

Omerta
Posts: 381
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:47 pm

Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby Omerta » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:20 pm

You have a tttt student's gift for stilted writing.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273135
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:22 pm

Gettingstarted1928 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Majority of people I know at NYU at median seem to be doing just fine (then again, this year things are likely going better than last, and obviously much better than 2 years ago). Your brother is definitely the exception. Sorry to hear about his situation, but he will absolutely be fine as long as he stays proactive when mid-size and smaller firms start hiring. A median student at a T6 school likely will not remain unemployed for long, assuming he doesn't throw in the towel.



So you think the market is better than it was two years ago? Not being facetious, BTW - I'm a 1L and have been wondering if things have been getting better or worse.


Then 2 years ago? Absolutely. The trend in hiring seems to be that firms are willing to hire a bit more, but the additional hiring seems to be coming from the top schools. Thus, at my T6, and other T6's that I hear from, things sound like they are even better than last year. Whereas, things at some lower ranked schools don't really seem any better than last year.

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rayiner
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Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby rayiner » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:27 pm

Major in Engineering, become an Engineer, and get your Masters in Business Administration later down the road.

Major in Business or Finance. If you are not at an elite Undergraduate Business School, try to transfer into one. Become a Business Analyst or Investment Banker and continue to climb up the Corporate ladder with a Masters in Business Administration later down the road.

Major in Computer Science. The possibilities are endless with this degree.

Complete Pre-Medicine requirements and pursue a career in the Medical field.


Most folks on here aren't good enough at math to major in engineering. And engineering sucks. I left a good engineering job to come to law school, and I'm glad I did. Where a senior associate at a big firm might bring in $1m in revenue and be compensated $250k, a senior engineer might bring in similar revenue and be compensated $100k. Whereas in a big firm getting laid off means being able to draw another 3 months pay (heck, folks who got Latham'ed got 6 months pay as severance), as an engineer you'll get laid-off regularly when projects end with maybe a few thousand dollars in severance if you're lucky. Whereas in a big firm you get more valuable as you get older, as an engineer you're obsolete by 40. If you want to improve your compensation and job security, you can get an MBA, but that's an even more bullshit degree than a JD. And engineering management is soul-sucking.

Business and finance have terrible outcomes for most people. Even at HYP getting investment banking is way harder than getting a big firm job from HYSCCN. And you have a very tiny shot at a good investment banking job from a non-elite school. Expected outlook for a business major at a run of the mill school is a 45k/year job if he or she is lucky.

The shortcomings applicable to engineering generally are applicable to CS as well. There are some great CS jobs, but getting Google/Facebook/etc is similar to getting WLRK or W&C is in law.

Now I think you should strongly consider your alternatives if you choose to go outside the T14, but if you can get in its a solid option. Yeah you've got a 10-50% risk (on the spectrum from Harvard to Georgetown) of getting nothing, but the upside potential is quite good.

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rinkrat19
Posts: 13912
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:35 am

Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby rinkrat19 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:44 pm

JohnHopkinsMD wrote:Major in Engineering, become an Engineer, and get your Masters in Business Administration later down the road.


And what do you say to the engineering majors who never found an engineering job? *raises hand*

I'm taking the T14 gamble, and I'm doing it with my eyes open and the best available information.

Unlike some science-disinclined liberal arts majors, I could probably get through med school, but I don't want to be a doctor.
Last edited by rinkrat19 on Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Big Shrimpin
Posts: 2468
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: You guys deserve better.

Postby Big Shrimpin » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:48 pm

rayiner wrote:
Major in Engineering, become an Engineer, and get your Masters in Business Administration later down the road.

Major in Business or Finance. If you are not at an elite Undergraduate Business School, try to transfer into one. Become a Business Analyst or Investment Banker and continue to climb up the Corporate ladder with a Masters in Business Administration later down the road.

Major in Computer Science. The possibilities are endless with this degree.

Complete Pre-Medicine requirements and pursue a career in the Medical field.


Most folks on here aren't good enough at math to major in engineering. And engineering sucks. I left a good engineering job to come to law school, and I'm glad I did. Where a senior associate at a big firm might bring in $1m in revenue and be compensated $250k, a senior engineer might bring in similar revenue and be compensated $100k. Whereas in a big firm getting laid off means being able to draw another 3 months pay (heck, folks who got Latham'ed got 6 months pay as severance), as an engineer you'll get laid-off regularly when projects end with maybe a few thousand dollars in severance if you're lucky. Whereas in a big firm you get more valuable as you get older, as an engineer you're obsolete by 40. If you want to improve your compensation and job security, you can get an MBA, but that's an even more bullshit degree than a JD. And engineering management is soul-sucking.

Business and finance have terrible outcomes for most people. Even at HYP getting investment banking is way harder than getting a big firm job from HYSCCN. And you have a very tiny shot at a good investment banking job from a non-elite school. Expected outlook for a business major at a run of the mill school is a 45k/year job if he or she is lucky.

The shortcomings applicable to engineering generally are applicable to CS as well. There are some great CS jobs, but getting Google/Facebook/etc is similar to getting WLRK or W&C is in law.

Now I think you should strongly consider your alternatives if you choose to go outside the T14, but if you can get in its a solid option. Yeah you've got a 10-50% risk (on the spectrum from Harvard to Georgetown) of getting nothing, but the upside potential is quite good.


Ever so sensible, and ever so right. Insight like this is part of the reason I took my UG engineering degree to LS. Couldn't be happier with the result.




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