Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

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Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:27 pm

Two thoughts as an associate who participates in call-back interviews:

When you're crafting your resume, go easy on anything with a religious affiliation. Your grades, journal, law school, etc. will play a big part of getting you in the door, but once you're in front of folks, the interview itself is greatly graded on how good the conversation goes. This means you have to have something to talk about. Interviewers will be extremely hesitant to spark conversation by mentioning your religious-affiliated activities. Some firms specifically ban a number of topics, including religion. If you walked out of interviews this year wondering why they didn't ask about the trip you organized for Campus Crusade for Christ (or Buddha, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or any other supreme being) that rebuilt three homes after a hurricane, wonder no more. It may not be fair, but it's reality.

Also don't bring up about anything having to do with high school in the interview. It may appear kinda neat that you were home-schooled by mom, ran a sub-.4:30 mile or got a perfect score on the SAT, but you can't bring up high school without coming off as if you have very little law school-related subject matter to talk about. The exception to this rule would be if the interviewer brings something up, but that's rare in my experience.

Good luck going forward.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ph14
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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby ph14 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Two thoughts from a call-back interviewer as this recruiting season wraps up:

When you're crafting your resume, go easy on anything with a religious affiliation. Your grades, journal, law school, etc. will play a big part of getting you in the door, but once you're in front of folks, the interview itself is greatly graded on how good the conversation goes. This means you have to have something to talk about. Interviewers will be extremely hesitant to spark conversation by mentioning your religious-affiliated activities. Some firms specifically ban a number of topics, including religion. If you walked out of interviews this year wondering why they didn't as about the trip you organized for Campus Crusade for Christ that rebuilt three homes after a hurricane, wonder no more. It may not be fair, but it's reality.

Also don't bring up about anything having to do with high school in the interview. It may appear kinda neat that you were home-schooled by mom, ran a sub-.4:30 mile or got a perfect score on the SAT, but you can't bring up high school without coming off as if you have very little law school-related subject matter to talk about. The exception to this rule would be if the interviewer brings something up, but that's rare in my experience.

Good luck going forward.


Thanks a lot.

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:32 pm

I'll add my observation as well:

If you don't get on a journal, say you want to do Corporate. Top 10% @ a T30, 25 screeners and I struck out. I asked each of my callbacks why I wasn't chosen, and every single one said, "we only hire journal members for litigation side, barring exception circumstances."

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Two thoughts from a call-back interviewer as this recruiting season wraps up:

When you're crafting your resume, go easy on anything with a religious affiliation. Your grades, journal, law school, etc. will play a big part of getting you in the door, but once you're in front of folks, the interview itself is greatly graded on how good the conversation goes. This means you have to have something to talk about. Interviewers will be extremely hesitant to spark conversation by mentioning your religious-affiliated activities. Some firms specifically ban a number of topics, including religion. If you walked out of interviews this year wondering why they didn't ask about the trip you organized for Campus Crusade for Christ (or Buddha, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or any other supreme being) that rebuilt three homes after a hurricane, wonder no more. It may not be fair, but it's reality.

Also don't bring up about anything having to do with high school in the interview. It may appear kinda neat that you were home-schooled by mom, ran a sub-.4:30 mile or got a perfect score on the SAT, but you can't bring up high school without coming off as if you have very little law school-related subject matter to talk about. The exception to this rule would be if the interviewer brings something up, but that's rare in my experience.

Good luck going forward.


I KNEW I should've mentioned by perfect SAT score in callbacks...

But on a serious note (not from a recruiter, but someone who just went through OCI) - don't put all your eggs in the DC basket unless you have serious family/spousal ties to the area. It's not easy to break into, and I know people that got screwed because they expected to get something from DC.

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:37 pm

More thoughts to add:

Build your resume with talking points in mind. I had the same few items come up off my resume in most of my interviews and that was a good thing (after I fumbled through the best way to talk about these things in my first few screeners--so try to plan ahead of obvious talking points and be able to relate them to show yourself in a good light). With that said, try to make sure that your talking points are ones that will go over well with both younger interviewers and older interviewers. Try to not have items that make you seem weird to either group.

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:27 pm

Got offer from V10 firms even though I had experience of being a coach at a religious school (name of the religion is on the resume) and also having 1L experience that dealt with church/state issues. So you have to handle it correctly - but it's not going to automatically ding you. And my grades weren't sky high - they were on the lower end of the range of the callbacks from my school.

I'd focus more on the skills you developed at the religious organization rather than the tenants of the faith. If you're out there helping poor people or running a food bank, those skills can be impressive regardless of the religion.

When it comes to law school EC's though, I might keep off the very political/religious ones. I'm not sure it's going to make or break your interview that you are super-involved with non-journal/MootCourt type activities. Maybe those are worth keeping off if they are controversial/divisive.

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Two thoughts as an associate who participates in call-back interviews:

When you're crafting your resume, go easy on anything with a religious affiliation. Your grades, journal, law school, etc. will play a big part of getting you in the door, but once you're in front of folks, the interview itself is greatly graded on how good the conversation goes. This means you have to have something to talk about. Interviewers will be extremely hesitant to spark conversation by mentioning your religious-affiliated activities. Some firms specifically ban a number of topics, including religion. If you walked out of interviews this year wondering why they didn't ask about the trip you organized for Campus Crusade for Christ (or Buddha, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or any other supreme being) that rebuilt three homes after a hurricane, wonder no more. It may not be fair, but it's reality.

Also don't bring up about anything having to do with high school in the interview. It may appear kinda neat that you were home-schooled by mom, ran a sub-.4:30 mile or got a perfect score on the SAT, but you can't bring up high school without coming off as if you have very little law school-related subject matter to talk about. The exception to this rule would be if the interviewer brings something up, but that's rare in my experience.

Good luck going forward.


Based on my experience, I disagree about the high school stuff. If you did something admirable during high school that shows qualities firms are looking for (like teamwork, Entrepreneurial spirit, competitiveness etc...) put it on your resume. There is a chance your interviewer will ask about it. I had probably 75 percent of my interviewers ask about something on my resume, and it seemed to go over very well.

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby stewie27 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Two thoughts from a call-back interviewer as this recruiting season wraps up:

When you're crafting your resume, go easy on anything with a religious affiliation. Your grades, journal, law school, etc. will play a big part of getting you in the door, but once you're in front of folks, the interview itself is greatly graded on how good the conversation goes. This means you have to have something to talk about. Interviewers will be extremely hesitant to spark conversation by mentioning your religious-affiliated activities. Some firms specifically ban a number of topics, including religion. If you walked out of interviews this year wondering why they didn't ask about the trip you organized for Campus Crusade for Christ (or Buddha, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or any other supreme being) that rebuilt three homes after a hurricane, wonder no more. It may not be fair, but it's reality.

Also don't bring up about anything having to do with high school in the interview. It may appear kinda neat that you were home-schooled by mom, ran a sub-.4:30 mile or got a perfect score on the SAT, but you can't bring up high school without coming off as if you have very little law school-related subject matter to talk about. The exception to this rule would be if the interviewer brings something up, but that's rare in my experience.

Good luck going forward.


I KNEW I should've mentioned by perfect SAT score in callbacks...

But on a serious note (not from a recruiter, but someone who just went through OCI) - don't put all your eggs in the DC basket unless you have serious family/spousal ties to the area. It's not easy to break into, and I know people that got screwed because they expected to get something from DC.


As someone who will be going through OCI next year and really wants DC, what do you recommend? Bid mostly on DC and some on NYC or a secondary market in case? Would going to undergrad in DC and having a long-term SO there count for ties?

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:42 pm

Here's just a scattering of thoughts ------

Come up with 2-4 themes that you want to get across during the interview. Spin every answer into one of those themes, direct every single answer into those 3 "buckets." You want to make sure that you SHOW your interviewer those things, don't just tell them.

Example: Don't say you're a hard-worker, say that "When I worked at the XYZ Corporation, work would fly by because there was interesting work. And because I liked the people I worked with, you could put in 50-60 hour weeks easy."

Come into each interview with high energy and try as much as possible to enjoy the conversation.

And for goodness's sakes, mass mail before OCI and try to get interviews at tiny firms or firms you're not interested in so that you're hitting your interview stride during your first screener at OCI.

Also, if you're interviewing ANYWHERE other than where you grew up or a place where you don't have CLEAR reasons ON YOUR RESUME to be at that location, you need to be very prepared to give a very convincing answer to why you want to be there. Firms everywhere, even in NYC, want to know why you're applying to be at Firm X in City A, when your whole life has been spent in City L.

When it comes to answering whether Lit/Corp, your answer should always start with: "I've been talking to lots of attorneys to try to determine what might be best for me, because 1L is SO litigation focused and the practice of law is so different than law school ---- But I think I might be leaning towards (Corp/Lit) because of XYZ. However, I could see myself doing the other because ABC. But I'm confident that a summer at this firm will let me figure that out." This shows you've thought about it, realized that you can't really know for sure, and that you're wanting to be pro-active during the summer to figure out what's best. I can't tell you how many times the interviewing attorney would say something like, "I'm very skeptical when someone comes in here and says they want to do Corp or Lit or XYZ because they don't know shit."

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:When it comes to answering whether Lit/Corp, your answer should always start with: "I've been talking to lots of attorneys to try to determine what might be best for me, because 1L is SO litigation focused and the practice of law is so different than law school ---- But I think I might be leaning towards (Corp/Lit) because of XYZ. However, I could see myself doing the other because ABC. But I'm confident that a summer at this firm will let me figure that out." This shows you've thought about it, realized that you can't really know for sure, and that you're wanting to be pro-active during the summer to figure out what's best. I can't tell you how many times the interviewing attorney would say something like, "I'm very skeptical when someone comes in here and says they want to do Corp or Lit or XYZ because they don't know shit."

+1. My offers have come from firms where I gave this answer, rather than those where I came off more decided on a particular practice area. I'm sure some people will have specific backgrounds where being more particular makes sense, but for most people I think showing you've thought about it but remaining flexible is the best answer.

(Unless you're at a place like Cravath, of course.)

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:08 pm

stewie27 wrote:
As someone who will be going through OCI next year and really wants DC, what do you recommend? Bid mostly on DC and some on NYC or a secondary market in case? Would going to undergrad in DC and having a long-term SO there count for ties?


if you reeeeally want to be in DC, I would structure your bids about 70-75% DC firms, 25-30% NYC firms with large classes, then i would apply to the rest of the NYC firms as well as firms in any areas you have ties to through mass mailing in mid-July. Wanting DC is fine, but make sure you have a backup plan because it's very easy to get burned targeting that market. in retrospect, i'm very glad i bid on only 2 firms in that market and if i could do it over, i wouldn't have bid on any and bid on more NY firms.

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:25 pm

Don't rely on Chicago...even with great grades/LR.

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Don't rely on Chicago...even with great grades/LR.


+1. i got boned during OCI because i bid on a ton of chicago firms (because i really want to be there), but have virtually no connections to the city. I got 0 CBs in Chicago, despite very good grades. probably didn't help that i sucked at interviewing during OCI, though...

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Don't rely on Chicago...even with great grades/LR.


+1. i got boned during OCI because i bid on a ton of chicago firms (because i really want to be there), but have virtually no connections to the city. I got 0 CBs in Chicago, despite very good grades. probably didn't help that i sucked at interviewing during OCI, though...


Same, I'm a suck ass interviewer, but I've at least gotten CBs in other cities.

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Don't rely on Chicago...even with great grades/LR.


+1. i got boned during OCI because i bid on a ton of chicago firms (because i really want to be there), but have virtually no connections to the city. I got 0 CBs in Chicago, despite very good grades. probably didn't help that i sucked at interviewing during OCI, though...


This isn't completely accurate. You can get a job in Chicago without any tangible Chicago ties if you can explain concretely why you want to be there--and by concretely I mean more than just "Chicago is a really great city, plus the cost of living is low." I managed to get a job there even though I've never lived there, have no family in the area, and don't attend a ls in the city (or state for that matter). I firmly believe it's all how one does in the interview itself.
That's the main point. People can say this and that, to redirect your answers such that you are "selling yourself" but in the end it's how the interview goes. So ask yourself and be honest:

Am I a likable person?
Would I want to hangout/work with me?
Do I sound like a tool?

From my own personal experience the answers to those question will determine where you will and will not get cbs/offers from. But hey, it's all anecdotal.

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
stewie27 wrote:
As someone who will be going through OCI next year and really wants DC, what do you recommend? Bid mostly on DC and some on NYC or a secondary market in case? Would going to undergrad in DC and having a long-term SO there count for ties?


if you reeeeally want to be in DC, I would structure your bids about 70-75% DC firms, 25-30% NYC firms with large classes, then i would apply to the rest of the NYC firms as well as firms in any areas you have ties to through mass mailing in mid-July. Wanting DC is fine, but make sure you have a backup plan because it's very easy to get burned targeting that market. in retrospect, i'm very glad i bid on only 2 firms in that market and if i could do it over, i wouldn't have bid on any and bid on more NY firms.


1. 10-15% at any school non-T6.

2. Try to work there for next summer, but be prepared to take government work and make no income.

3. Come up with three reasons you want to live and work in DC. Sounds like you already have two: Undergrad (love the city) and SO (love my SO). A third reason would be: I want to do the types of practice available in DC: admin, litigation (or whatever baloney work the firm does).

4. When asked where else you're bidding, say DC exclusively and rattle of the top 5 firms (if you have the grades to back it up).

5 . Say you think you and New York City aren't a good fit for one another.

6. Don't be a pompous jerk in your interviews. Rather, be interested, knowledgeable, and engaged in the conversation.

Also, I second everything OP said. No religion, no politics, no high school.

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:19 am

make sure you schedule your #1 firms as soon as possible. offers are given on a rolling basis. I learned this the hard way.

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:03 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Don't rely on Chicago...even with great grades/LR.


+1. i got boned during OCI because i bid on a ton of chicago firms (because i really want to be there), but have virtually no connections to the city. I got 0 CBs in Chicago, despite very good grades. probably didn't help that i sucked at interviewing during OCI, though...


This isn't completely accurate. You can get a job in Chicago without any tangible Chicago ties if you can explain concretely why you want to be there--and by concretely I mean more than just "Chicago is a really great city, plus the cost of living is low." I managed to get a job there even though I've never lived there, have no family in the area, and don't attend a ls in the city (or state for that matter). I firmly believe it's all how one does in the interview itself.
That's the main point. People can say this and that, to redirect your answers such that you are "selling yourself" but in the end it's how the interview goes. So ask yourself and be honest:

Am I a likable person?
Would I want to hangout/work with me?
Do I sound like a tool?

From my own personal experience the answers to those question will determine where you will and will not get cbs/offers from. But hey, it's all anecdotal.


oh i completely did the whole self-eval thing post-OCI...definitely realized i just suck at interviewing. changed things up a little for the CBs I did get (in other markets) and ended up with an offer. just saying if i could do it over i wouldn't devote so much of my bid list to chicago because, frankly, the jobs just aren't there like they are in NYC right now.

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:50 am

I felt like I really got screwed being caucasian + below median + no WE from CLS, even though I am generally a strong interviewer. I sensed that in many of my interviews I had 0 chance of a CB no matter how "well" it went.

My advice would be to try to find SOMETHING to put on your resume if you have no WE and nothing else (like grades, etc) to make you stand out and to show that you can handle biglaw, that you're a hard worker, etc.

If anyone disagrees I'd be interested to hear opinions on this. It's hard to isolate the cause to striking out, but this is my strongest hypothesis.

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:04 am

I have no idea how interviews would go if I had no work experience. I only had a year off before law school at an interesting job and also worked some interesting jobs in college, but virtually 90% of my interview discussion was about this experience.

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby 03121202698008 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:09 am

My addition: Most firms use behavioral interviewing. When they ask about your experience, they expect you to tell them things that hit broad terms they are looking for. Figure out what characteristics you want to sell about yourself (leadership, team work, etc) and make sure your answers demonstrate those qualities without actually saying, "I was a team player." If they do not ask the question you plan to work that quality into, add it into another on the fly so you hit all of the qualities you want to sell.

This can be hard to do without coming across weird...but is very effective if you can do it.

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby 03121202698008 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:13 am

Anonymous User wrote:
stewie27 wrote:
As someone who will be going through OCI next year and really wants DC, what do you recommend? Bid mostly on DC and some on NYC or a secondary market in case? Would going to undergrad in DC and having a long-term SO there count for ties?


if you reeeeally want to be in DC, I would structure your bids about 70-75% DC firms, 25-30% NYC firms with large classes, then i would apply to the rest of the NYC firms as well as firms in any areas you have ties to through mass mailing in mid-July. Wanting DC is fine, but make sure you have a backup plan because it's very easy to get burned targeting that market. in retrospect, i'm very glad i bid on only 2 firms in that market and if i could do it over, i wouldn't have bid on any and bid on more NY firms.


From experience, you can sell DC if you are looking for a practice area that is limited to that city. Also, if you do bid only DC...make sure you tell them you only bid DC so they see your commitment. I bid 70/30 DC/NYC and ended up with only callbacks in DC. Every time I was asked why DC, I worked in that all of my callbacks were in DC which seemed to instantly get the checkmark and they'd move on.

I may be an outlier though...I was in the military which many understood made me kind of a nomad.

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby joeshmo39 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:28 am

My one nugget:

Try to get something on your resume that will resonate with these big corporate firms. I did some research over the summer on a topic that gets litigated fairly often and is also a consideration for M&A deals. I was asked about it fairly often. During the interviews where I really got into it, I mean spending more than 5 minutes talking about the issue, and was asked questions about cases, my thoughts, statutory schemes, policy implications, etc. I usually made it to the Callback.

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote: everything OP said. No religion, no politics, no high school.


If you have an interesting or sophisticated hobby/talent/experience, list it at the bottom of your resume with "other information" (languages,etc. ) . If you've lived abroad for work or anything list that too - just a couple of words under "other info." . I got almost as much mileage out of interesting hobbies as I did out of other "substantive" stuff on my resume. People get bored talking about your experience in law school/summer job all day. If you can get off that beaten path in a way that makes you look intelligent, sophisticated, and worldly, do it.

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Re: Two quick thoughts for next year's OCI candidates

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: everything OP said. No religion, no politics, no high school.


If you have an interesting or sophisticated hobby/talent/experience, list it at the bottom of your resume with "other information" (languages,etc. ) . If you've lived abroad for work or anything list that too - just a couple of words under "other info." . I got almost as much mileage out of interesting hobbies as I did out of other "substantive" stuff on my resume. People get bored talking about your experience in law school/summer job all day. If you can get off that beaten path in a way that makes you look intelligent, sophisticated, and worldly, do it.


+1. in probably 90% of my interviews i was asked about one of the things i had listed under my "other information" section. needless to say, after a few go-arounds i had perfected my answer to each and it can be highly effective if you use it to demonstrate some trait you have that will be useful in the practice of law (in my case that i was disciplined, committed, and level-headed in stressful situations).




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