Question about the struggling legal market.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Clerkships and government jobs took how much of that 20% chunk out? I had heard that for V50-up, no-offers were generally not something to be concerned about.


Pretty sure I know of at least one V20-ish or so that likely no-offered this past summer (not sure of the exact rank). Not going to mention the firm since it's just a "through the grapevine" thing.


There will always be exceptions, but I was under the impression that firms had adjusted hiring sufficiently. I'm just worried because I took a V5 firm with a lifestyle that will be much harder on me instead of a NLJ250 because I didn't want to run this risk.

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rayiner
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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby rayiner » Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
If their internal data is to be believed, they hit the 70% mark last OCI as well. The data I have from NU suggests that we hit the 60% mark. Of course when you factor in no-offers (which wasn't insubstantial this year thanks to fears of double-dip), along with clerkship and government defectors, I predict ~40% actual NLJ250 placement at graduation.


Summer 2011 was a big year for no-offers? What?! 20%?


Did you not read the clerkship part of rayiner's reply?


Clerkships and government jobs took how much of that 20% chunk out? I had heard that for V50-up, no-offers were generally not something to be concerned about.


If 60% of people get SA's, and the offer rate is 90-95%, then 3-5% of the class ends up getting no-offered. Clerkships account for 10-12% of the class, almost all of which did an SA, and people doing PI or prestigious federal government work after doing an SA might be 5% of the class.

Law firms have adjusted hiring to account for the recession, but if there is a double dip there will be more no-offers coming. Indeed, data for C/O 2012 summer offer rates aren't out yet, but I'd bet they were up a bit (from what I've been seeing) because the economic outlook looks worse now thanks to fears of double-dip than it did in late 2010 where people were convinced we were in a slow recovery.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:08 pm

flcath wrote:
lawdooder wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Damn. I know reality is what it is and blah blah blah. But some of this stuff is just so depressing.


It's not. Depressing = when people plop down 100k+ for a lottery ticket that -- even when it pays out -- is disliked by many.

If you can't land yourself at one of these top schools, it's a losing game with little-to-no upside. go start a business.

Go to med school.


Honestly the best advice I could give anyone or anyone could give me. I'm just trying to assess the risk on both ends. I am trying to see if I have the potential to finish the pre-med pre-reqs with high enough grades to be accepted to medical school. If I don't, then I'm fucked. But on the other hand, I know I could get into a top law school, but will that lead me to a job? There are risks in pursuing both.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
flcath wrote:Go to med school.


Honestly the best advice I could give anyone or anyone could give me. I'm just trying to assess the risk on both ends. I am trying to see if I have the potential to finish the pre-med pre-reqs with high enough grades to be accepted to medical school. If I don't, then I'm fucked. But on the other hand, I know I could get into a top law school, but will that lead me to a job? There are risks in pursuing both.


This is ridiculous. If you can finish the science pre-reqs, dentistry is definitely the way to go. Far superior to med school in most cases (except in law prestige).

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:32 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
flcath wrote:Go to med school.


Honestly the best advice I could give anyone or anyone could give me. I'm just trying to assess the risk on both ends. I am trying to see if I have the potential to finish the pre-med pre-reqs with high enough grades to be accepted to medical school. If I don't, then I'm fucked. But on the other hand, I know I could get into a top law school, but will that lead me to a job? There are risks in pursuing both.


This is ridiculous. If you can finish the science pre-reqs, dentistry is definitely the way to go. Far superior to med school in most cases (except in law prestige).


well yeah i meant the medical field in general

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
flcath wrote:Go to med school.


Honestly the best advice I could give anyone or anyone could give me. I'm just trying to assess the risk on both ends. I am trying to see if I have the potential to finish the pre-med pre-reqs with high enough grades to be accepted to medical school. If I don't, then I'm fucked. But on the other hand, I know I could get into a top law school, but will that lead me to a job? There are risks in pursuing both.


This is ridiculous. If you can finish the science pre-reqs, dentistry is definitely the way to go. Far superior to med school in most cases (except in law prestige).


well yeah i meant the medical health field in general


?

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beachbum
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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby beachbum » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:00 pm

lol guys everyone should just ditch law and go to med school! Doctors are so much cooler.

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:44 pm

TBF, the only law schools that are comparable to even a mediocre med school in prestige are HYS. Every other school leaves its students with a material possibility that they will end up flipping burgers at McDonalds. Name a med school where that's even a remote concern for >5% of the graduating class.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:46 pm

time to hit the pre-med books!

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rayiner
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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby rayiner » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:49 pm

I'm the first one to point out the inherent risks of law school, but the two are not fungible at all. Being a doctor and being a lawyer are two completely different jobs. The set of skills needed to do well in each profession have almost no intersection between them.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:50 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:TBF, the only law schools that are comparable to even a mediocre med school in prestige are HYS. Every other school leaves its students with a material possibility that they will end up flipping burgers at McDonalds. Name a med school where that's even a remote concern for >5% of the graduating class.

You act like med school is a viable option for everyone who attends law school. It's not. Yes, given the current economy, one's chances at securing employment as a physician may be greater than one's chances at securing employment as an attorney. But it's not like we have the choice between the two and we just all keep picking law school. They're not comparable.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:01 pm

I think if we all work hard enough we can go to medical school if thats what we choose.

Now if you are so set on being an attorney that making 50k being an attorney is worth more than the hard work put into making much much being a physician than thats a different story

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:08 pm

rayiner wrote:I'm the first one to point out the inherent risks of law school, but the two are not fungible at all. Being a doctor and being a lawyer are two completely different jobs. The set of skills needed to do well in each profession have almost no intersection between them.


There's no intersection because there are no skills needed to do well in the legal profession.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:09 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:TBF, the only law schools that are comparable to even a mediocre med school in prestige are HYS. Every other school leaves its students with a material possibility that they will end up flipping burgers at McDonalds. Name a med school where that's even a remote concern for >5% of the graduating class.

You act like med school is a viable option for everyone who attends law school. It's not. Yes, given the current economy, one's chances at securing employment as a physician may be greater than one's chances at securing employment as an attorney. But it's not like we have the choice between the two and we just all keep picking law school. They're not comparable.


I never said or "acted" like med school is a viable option for everyone who attends law school.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby KamaalTheAbstract » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:29 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
rayiner wrote:I'm the first one to point out the inherent risks of law school, but the two are not fungible at all. Being a doctor and being a lawyer are two completely different jobs. The set of skills needed to do well in each profession have almost no intersection between them.


There's no intersection because there are no skills needed to do well in the legal profession.


So true

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby rayiner » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:43 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
rayiner wrote:I'm the first one to point out the inherent risks of law school, but the two are not fungible at all. Being a doctor and being a lawyer are two completely different jobs. The set of skills needed to do well in each profession have almost no intersection between them.


There's no intersection because there are no skills needed to do well in the legal profession.


This is a pat answer, but it's not really true. Parsing statutory language or a contract to see what a corporate client is and is not allowed to do requires a certain logical/analytical skill. Arguing a point based on examples or case law requires a certain analytical and persuasive skill. Writing well and clearly requires skill. Negotiating requires skill. This is the bread and butter of what lawyers do.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby KamaalTheAbstract » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:51 pm

rayiner wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
rayiner wrote:I'm the first one to point out the inherent risks of law school, but the two are not fungible at all. Being a doctor and being a lawyer are two completely different jobs. The set of skills needed to do well in each profession have almost no intersection between them.


There's no intersection because there are no skills needed to do well in the legal profession.


This is a pat answer, but it's not really true. Parsing statutory language or a contract to see what a corporate client is and is not allowed to do requires a certain logical/analytical skill. Arguing a point based on examples or case law requires a certain analytical and persuasive skill. Writing well and clearly requires skill. Negotiating requires skill. This is the bread and butter of what lawyers do.


I'm in the camp that any reasonably intelligent person can do these things. Arguing a point based on examples and writing well and clearly is done by highschoolers everyday.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Renzo » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:58 pm

KamaalTheAbstract wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
rayiner wrote:I'm the first one to point out the inherent risks of law school, but the two are not fungible at all. Being a doctor and being a lawyer are two completely different jobs. The set of skills needed to do well in each profession have almost no intersection between them.


There's no intersection because there are no skills needed to do well in the legal profession.


This is a pat answer, but it's not really true. Parsing statutory language or a contract to see what a corporate client is and is not allowed to do requires a certain logical/analytical skill. Arguing a point based on examples or case law requires a certain analytical and persuasive skill. Writing well and clearly requires skill. Negotiating requires skill. This is the bread and butter of what lawyers do.


I'm in the camp that any reasonably intelligent person can do these things. Arguing a point based on examples and writing well and clearly is done by highschoolers everyday.


Then you will make a terrible lawyer. Reasonably intelligent people do not do this as well as skilled lawyers. People laugh about Bill Clinton's "depends on what the definition of 'is' is" moment, but it's a great example of what a skilled lawyer can do: parse the most common word in the English language in a way that makes it seem like no one could ever really be sure what it meant.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby KamaalTheAbstract » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:14 pm

Dude shut up. You talk too much for someone who In reality knows nothing. I think I'll be able to get through my years at my law firm without ever being in the situation to ask what the definition of is is. I'm sure you on the other hand will be arguing cases in front of the supreme court.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Bronte » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:20 pm

KamaalTheAbstract wrote:I'm in the camp that any reasonably intelligent person can do these things. Arguing a point based on examples and writing well and clearly is done by highschoolers everyday.


Basic reading and writing skills are practiced by high school students every day. So are basic science skills. However, most high school students do not excel at either and are incapable of excelling at either. Even fewer of them will go on to excel at both. A close friend of mine was great at science in high school, and I was great at humanities. He went on to a top med school, and I went on to a top law school. We would both readily admit that we couldn't do what the other does. Your brand of exaggerated cynicism and self-deprecation is unrealistic and doesn't translate to the real world, where people actually recognize that medicine and law are different fields, requiring very different skillsets.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Renzo » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:22 pm

KamaalTheAbstract wrote:Dude shut up. You talk too much for someone who In reality knows nothing. I think I'll be able to get through my years at my law firm without ever being in the situation to ask what the definition of is is. I'm sure you on the other hand will be arguing cases in front of the supreme court.


You're right. No one is going to ask you what the definition of 'is' is. In fact, people probably won't be asking you for much input during your years at a law firm, since you aspire to exactly as good at being a lawyer as your secretary would be if he or she had to fill in for you for the day.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby 071816 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:23 pm

KamaalTheAbstract wrote:Dude shut up. You talk too much for someone who In reality knows nothing. I think I'll be able to get through my years at my law firm without ever being in the situation to ask what the definition of is is. I'm sure you on the other hand will be arguing cases in front of the supreme court.


I'm loving the overly simplistic hyperbole. Good job.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby KamaalTheAbstract » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:29 pm

Renzo wrote:
KamaalTheAbstract wrote:Dude shut up. You talk too much for someone who In reality knows nothing. I think I'll be able to get through my years at my law firm without ever being in the situation to ask what the definition of is is. I'm sure you on the other hand will be arguing cases in front of the supreme court.


You're right. No one is going to ask you what the definition of 'is' is. In fact, people probably won't be asking you for much input during your years at a law firm, since you aspire to exactly as good at being a lawyer as your secretary would be if he or she had to fill in for you for the day.

I'm not going to derail the thread. So I'll wrap up with this: what I'm saying is not lawyers have no skills. I just believe my sister who is a doctor would have no problem swapping places with and she would end up as being just a good a lawyer. All of these skills you speak, in my opinion are cultivated and learned. I think anyone if reasonable intelligence, and by reasonable intelligence I mean people who are successful in their own careers (banking,consultants, doctors, engineers) would be successful at a lawfirm as well. Not trying to say everyone is useless at a law firm.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Bronte » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:33 pm

KamaalTheAbstract wrote:
Renzo wrote:
KamaalTheAbstract wrote:Dude shut up. You talk too much for someone who In reality knows nothing. I think I'll be able to get through my years at my law firm without ever being in the situation to ask what the definition of is is. I'm sure you on the other hand will be arguing cases in front of the supreme court.


You're right. No one is going to ask you what the definition of 'is' is. In fact, people probably won't be asking you for much input during your years at a law firm, since you aspire to exactly as good at being a lawyer as your secretary would be if he or she had to fill in for you for the day.

I'm not going to derail the thread. So I'll wrap up with this: what I'm saying is not lawyers have no skills. I just believe my sister who is a doctor would have no problem swapping places with and she would end up as being just a good a lawyer. All of these skills you speak, in my opinion are cultivated and learned. I think anyone if reasonable intelligence, and by reasonable intelligence I mean people who are successful in their own careers (banking,consultants, doctors, engineers) would be successful at a lawfirm as well. Not trying to say everyone is useless at a law firm.


I think this view is partly what leads so many people to go to law school by default and end up miserable. Most people are actually terrible writers, struggle with high leaving reading comprehension, and do not have a knack for rigorous qualitative analysis. People who are very good at math and science often fall into this camp and will readily admit it.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Renzo » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:54 pm

Bronte wrote:I think this view is partly what leads so many people to go to law school by default and end up miserable. Most people are actually terrible writers, struggle with high leaving reading comprehension, and do not have a knack for rigorous qualitative analysis. People who are very good at math and science often fall into this camp and will readily admit it.


I agree. While there isn't any magic in law school, being a lawyer involves real, difficult skills that need to be mastered. Lots of smart people are capable of doing so, but smart people, just like dumb people, have aptitudes. People are not equally good at all jobs, and in particular, people who make good doctors may not be well suited to lawyering (at least not all forms of it).

In fact, the skills of a good clinician and good litigator are basically inverse: a clinician takes some bits of incomplete data, quickly weighs their relative importance, and tries to quickly synthesize them into a recognizable pattern that will lead to a diagnosis. A lawyer takes a given, known "diagnosis" and tries to deconstruct it into elements so that they can pick selectively pick one data point out of dozens, blow it out of all proportion, and convince other people that it makes the thing nothing like all those others that you thought were exactly the same, despite the clear similarities.




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