Question about the struggling legal market.

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18422
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby bk1 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:59 pm

KamaalTheAbstract wrote:what I'm saying is not lawyers have no skills.

--ImageRemoved--

KamaalTheAbstract
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:04 am

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby KamaalTheAbstract » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:08 pm

bk1 wrote:
KamaalTheAbstract wrote:what I'm saying is not lawyers have no skills.

--ImageRemoved--

Using an iPhone and walking but nevertheless you're cool for highlighting the typo bro. Considering you're not even in law school yet, it seems right that you limit your posts in the employment forum to catching typos. Keep fighting the good fight.

User avatar
YourCaptain
Posts: 719
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:26 pm

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby YourCaptain » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:19 pm

KamaalTheAbstract wrote:
Renzo wrote:
KamaalTheAbstract wrote:Dude shut up. You talk too much for someone who In reality knows nothing. I think I'll be able to get through my years at my law firm without ever being in the situation to ask what the definition of is is. I'm sure you on the other hand will be arguing cases in front of the supreme court.


You're right. No one is going to ask you what the definition of 'is' is. In fact, people probably won't be asking you for much input during your years at a law firm, since you aspire to exactly as good at being a lawyer as your secretary would be if he or she had to fill in for you for the day.

I'm not going to derail the thread. So I'll wrap up with this: what I'm saying is not lawyers have no skills. I just believe my sister who is a doctor would have no problem swapping places with and she would end up as being just a good a lawyer. All of these skills you speak, in my opinion are cultivated and learned. I think anyone if reasonable intelligence, and by reasonable intelligence I mean people who are successful in their own careers (banking,consultants, doctors, engineers) would be successful at a lawfirm as well. Not trying to say everyone is useless at a law firm.


I am one of the last people to defend the legal profession but this is simply untrue.

kublaikahn
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:47 am

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby kublaikahn » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:21 pm

YourCaptain wrote:
KamaalTheAbstract wrote:
Renzo wrote:
KamaalTheAbstract wrote:Dude shut up. You talk too much for someone who In reality knows nothing. I think I'll be able to get through my years at my law firm without ever being in the situation to ask what the definition of is is. I'm sure you on the other hand will be arguing cases in front of the supreme court.


You're right. No one is going to ask you what the definition of 'is' is. In fact, people probably won't be asking you for much input during your years at a law firm, since you aspire to exactly as good at being a lawyer as your secretary would be if he or she had to fill in for you for the day.

I'm not going to derail the thread. So I'll wrap up with this: what I'm saying is not lawyers have no skills. I just believe my sister who is a doctor would have no problem swapping places with and she would end up as being just a good a lawyer. All of these skills you speak, in my opinion are cultivated and learned. I think anyone if reasonable intelligence, and by reasonable intelligence I mean people who are successful in their own careers (banking,consultants, doctors, engineers) would be successful at a lawfirm as well. Not trying to say everyone is useless at a law firm.


I am one of the last people to defend the legal profession but this is simply untrue.


You know this guys sister?

User avatar
YourCaptain
Posts: 719
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:26 pm

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby YourCaptain » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:25 pm

kublaikahn wrote:
YourCaptain wrote:
KamaalTheAbstract wrote:I'm not going to derail the thread. So I'll wrap up with this: what I'm saying is not lawyers have no skills. I just believe my sister who is a doctor would have no problem swapping places with and she would end up as being just a good a lawyer. All of these skills you speak, in my opinion are cultivated and learned. I think anyone if reasonable intelligence, and by reasonable intelligence I mean people who are successful in their own careers (banking,consultants, doctors, engineers) would be successful at a lawfirm as well. Not trying to say everyone is useless at a law firm.


I am one of the last people to defend the legal profession but this is simply untrue.


You know this guys sister?


Got her on speed-dial for *those* moments.

KamaalTheAbstract
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:04 am

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby KamaalTheAbstract » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:25 pm

I just don't know what kind of SA experiences you guys have that you think a med student could do that work. Im a joint degree student and I SAd for two summers and have done nothing to this date that my sister that went to Penn med couldn't do. Obviously I don't think you could throw her in at the level of 3rd year associate but I don't think any of us could do that

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18422
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby bk1 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:31 pm

KamaalTheAbstract wrote:I just don't know what kind of SA experiences you guys have that you think a med student could do that work. Im a joint degree student and I SAd for two summers and have done nothing to this date that my sister that went to Penn med couldn't do. Obviously I don't think you could throw her in at the level of 3rd year associate but I don't think any of us could do that


You seem to have a hard on for your sister. Might want to have that checked out.

071816
Posts: 5511
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:06 pm

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby 071816 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:32 pm

kublaikahn wrote:You know this guys sister?


Everybody knows this guy's sister :wink:

KamaalTheAbstract
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:04 am

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby KamaalTheAbstract » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:38 pm

bk1 wrote:
KamaalTheAbstract wrote:I just don't know what kind of SA experiences you guys have that you think a med student could do that work. Im a joint degree student and I SAd for two summers and have done nothing to this date that my sister that went to Penn med couldn't do. Obviously I don't think you could throw her in at the level of 3rd year associate but I don't think any of us could do that


You seem to have a hard on for your sister. Might want to have that checked out.


You're on fire tonight man.

User avatar
Julio_El_Chavo
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:09 pm

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:41 pm

rayiner wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
rayiner wrote:I'm the first one to point out the inherent risks of law school, but the two are not fungible at all. Being a doctor and being a lawyer are two completely different jobs. The set of skills needed to do well in each profession have almost no intersection between them.


There's no intersection because there are no skills needed to do well in the legal profession.


This is a pat answer, but it's not really true. Parsing statutory language or a contract to see what a corporate client is and is not allowed to do requires a certain logical/analytical skill. Arguing a point based on examples or case law requires a certain analytical and persuasive skill. Writing well and clearly requires skill. Negotiating requires skill. This is the bread and butter of what lawyers do.


These are skills needed in almost every high paying job, including medical jobs. You don't think doctors have to think analytically or logically? Understanding chemistry, biology, and anatomy requires reading comprehension. Bringing yourself up to speed on the latest treatments requires parsing medical studies. Etc.

KamaalTheAbstract
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:04 am

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby KamaalTheAbstract » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:54 pm

bk1 wrote:
KamaalTheAbstract wrote:I just don't know what kind of SA experiences you guys have that you think a med student could do that work. Im a joint degree student and I SAd for two summers and have done nothing to this date that my sister that went to Penn med couldn't do. Obviously I don't think you could throw her in at the level of 3rd year associate but I don't think any of us could do that


You seem to have a hard on for your sister. Might want to have that checked out.


And dude you might want to get out more. 13,000 plus posts and you're not even in law school yet. This website must be like your second life. Just sitting on TLS waiting to pounce on typos and get into anonymous internet beef.

User avatar
MrPapagiorgio
Posts: 1747
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:36 am

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:08 pm

KamaalTheAbstract wrote:
bk1 wrote:
KamaalTheAbstract wrote:I just don't know what kind of SA experiences you guys have that you think a med student could do that work. Im a joint degree student and I SAd for two summers and have done nothing to this date that my sister that went to Penn med couldn't do. Obviously I don't think you could throw her in at the level of 3rd year associate but I don't think any of us could do that


You seem to have a hard on for your sister. Might want to have that checked out.


And dude you might want to get out more. 13,000 plus posts and you're not even in law school yet. This website must be like your second life. Just sitting on TLS waiting to pounce on typos and get into anonymous internet beef.

Goddamn bk. You attract these people like cocaine attracts charlie sheen.

Renzo
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:23 am

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Renzo » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:21 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
rayiner wrote:I'm the first one to point out the inherent risks of law school, but the two are not fungible at all. Being a doctor and being a lawyer are two completely different jobs. The set of skills needed to do well in each profession have almost no intersection between them.


There's no intersection because there are no skills needed to do well in the legal profession.


This is a pat answer, but it's not really true. Parsing statutory language or a contract to see what a corporate client is and is not allowed to do requires a certain logical/analytical skill. Arguing a point based on examples or case law requires a certain analytical and persuasive skill. Writing well and clearly requires skill. Negotiating requires skill. This is the bread and butter of what lawyers do.


These are skills needed in almost every high paying job, including medical jobs. You don't think doctors have to think analytically or logically? Understanding chemistry, biology, and anatomy requires reading comprehension. Bringing yourself up to speed on the latest treatments requires parsing medical studies. Etc.


1) there are several very different types of analytic thinking. It's not all fungible. One of the things you learn in medical school is "think like a doctor." They call it clinical decisonmaking; and, like legal analysis, it's an important skill that takes considerable work to master.

2) Basically zero doctors are up to speed on the latest treatments, and what little they do know they were taught by shills for drug and device companies.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273397
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:30 pm

What is most prestigious: Going to a good medical school or top 14 law school?

User avatar
Blessedassurance
Posts: 2081
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:42 pm

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Blessedassurance » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What is most prestigious: Going to a good medical school or top 14 law school?


Lay prestige or what? I'd imagine an employed doctor is in a better position than an unemployed lawyer. Hell, an employed nurse is better than an unemployed lawyer. No offense to nurses.

Lay prestige means nothing and can be funny. I met some guys in Northern, VA who didn't know anything about Stanford or the fact that it had a law school and thought Georgetown was heaven.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273397
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:40 pm

Lay prestige from a top-14 graduate with a big firm job v. a medical school graduate from a good school with a good job.

kublaikahn
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:47 am

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby kublaikahn » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Lay prestige from a top-14 graduate with a big firm job v. a medical school graduate from a good school with a good job.

What do they call the dude that graduated last in his class in medical school?

KamaalTheAbstract
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:04 am

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby KamaalTheAbstract » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:48 pm

kublaikahn wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Lay prestige from a top-14 graduate with a big firm job v. a medical school graduate from a good school with a good job.

What do they call the dude that graduated last in his class in medical school?


They call him a doctor and the equivalent in law school a barista.

User avatar
Julio_El_Chavo
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:09 pm

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:24 pm

Renzo wrote:1) there are several very different types of analytic thinking. It's not all fungible. One of the things you learn in medical school is "think like a doctor." They call it clinical decisonmaking; and, like legal analysis, it's an important skill that takes considerable work to master.


I still say there are striking similarities between diagnosing potential legal issues and diagnosing potential health problems. There are reasoning skills common to both professions. The fact of the matter is that med schools are better at limiting enrollment and therefore it's harder to get into medical school. By implication, medical students are smarter than most law students. I realize that you're going to be a lawyer and you want to feel special, but what the vast majority of lawyers do is not difficult. Not everyone is penning exquisite prose in court opinions or writing scholarly articles. Most attorney are doing rote tasks that are extremely repetitive, boring, and low-wattage.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273397
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:27 pm

KamaalTheAbstract wrote:Dude shut up. You talk too much for someone who In reality knows nothing. I think I'll be able to get through my years at my law firm without ever being in the situation to ask what the definition of is is. I'm sure you on the other hand will be arguing cases in front of the supreme court.


Have you ever done any real legal work? During my SA I actually ran into a point of first impression and had to write a memo based on a series of Supreme Court cases. While very few people argue cases like Citizens United on a regular basis, even unglamorous civil litigation can require you to interpret some new provision in some random law in light of established precedent. If you do corporate work, even as a junior you'll be asked to summarize very complex contractual provisions that use lots of accounting and business concepts that you have to teach yourself.

The LSAT, law exams, etc, select for people who are quick thinkers and there is a nugget of utility in that. While some legal work could be done by a high school student, even simple tasks like doc review or summarizing a deal provision can require you to quickly learn about your clients business. When you do corporate work you need to understand complex contractual provisions which are as varied as the varied businesses that do the deals you'll work on. When you do litigation you'll be asked to become a little bit of an expert in some completely random subjects.

User avatar
crazycanuck
Posts: 3043
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:04 pm

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby crazycanuck » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:32 pm

There's nothing wrong with the top students having to find good jobs. I dont think the number of schools and number of graduates is a problem.

The problem is that Barrie Law charges just as much in tuition as Harvard.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby rayiner » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:39 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Renzo wrote:1) there are several very different types of analytic thinking. It's not all fungible. One of the things you learn in medical school is "think like a doctor." They call it clinical decisonmaking; and, like legal analysis, it's an important skill that takes considerable work to master.


I still say there are striking similarities between diagnosing potential legal issues and diagnosing potential health problems. There are reasoning skills common to both professions. The fact of the matter is that med schools are better at limiting enrollment and therefore it's harder to get into medical school. By implication, medical students are smarter than most law students. I realize that you're going to be a lawyer and you want to feel special, but what the vast majority of lawyers do is not difficult. Not everyone is penning exquisite prose in court opinions or writing scholarly articles. Most attorney are doing rote tasks that are extremely repetitive, boring, and low-wattage.


No doubt the average med student is smarter than the average law student, but a lot of students at top med schools probably couldn't get the LSAT necessary to get into a top law school.

As someone who has worked in demanding non-law fields I think Renzo's post about different types of analytical thinking is absolutely spot-on. The analytical skills required to be a good programmer, for example, are very different than the ones required to be a good physicist. I.e. it's quite possible to do well in Combinatorics and terribly in Differential Equations, even though both are "math."

mrloblaw
Posts: 534
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby mrloblaw » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:47 pm

The absolute worst doctors are clearly more intelligent than the absolute worst lawyers. That's because medical school admissions keep people who do not have the minimum talent to get the job done out, while a new law school opens at least once a year to let in the people who aren't minimally competent for any of the extant law schools.

There is a rationale for that, at least on the medical school end: bad doctors kill people. Literally. Hell, even a good doctor will quite likely a few people over the course of the thousands upon thousands he will treat.

When it comes to law, there is lawyering, and there is lawyering. The mindless rote work that you did as a 2L SA, and probably 99.9% of the work done by anyone who spends four years at a white shoe firm and then bails, could be done by a retarded chimpanzee. Fine. But when a renowned litigation partner goes to court, or a skilled corporate partner brokers a complex deal, there's a mystical blend of time-refined skilled and natural talent on display that can rival absolutely anything in medicine.

As exhibit A, note http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Images/OccsX.jpg. Up to the 50th percentile in each profession, doctors slay lawyers in IQ, whatever that actually measures. At the 75th percentile, they're incredibly close, and at 90th percentile, they're almost identical.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273397
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:49 pm

one thing i dont understand is that if students from top law schools are having trouble finding employment, how does ANYONE from a TT etc get any kind of employment?

mrloblaw
Posts: 534
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby mrloblaw » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:one thing i dont understand is that if students from top law schools are having trouble finding employment, how does ANYONE from a TT etc get any kind of employment?


Because contrary to TLS wisdom, one's choice in school doesn't mean everything. Grades and regional ties are also huge, as might be pre-law work experience.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.