Question about the struggling legal market.

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Anonymous User
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Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:21 pm

Is the struggling legal market a product of the legal profession itself, or a product of the bad economy as a whole? Meaning when the economy gets better, is the legal market expected to bounce back as well?

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Is the struggling legal market a product of the legal profession itself, or a product of the bad economy as a whole? Meaning when the economy gets better, is the legal market expected to bounce back as well?


Both. There are far too many law schools, when instead the amount of graduates should be capped like in dentistry and medical school. But the economy is also shit.

Citizen Genet
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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Citizen Genet » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Is the struggling legal market a product of the legal profession itself, or a product of the bad economy as a whole? Meaning when the economy gets better, is the legal market expected to bounce back as well?


Both. There are far too many law schools, when instead the amount of graduates should be capped like in dentistry and medical school. But the economy is also shit.



Except capping it is just a means to artificially inflate lawyer's salaries or to "protect" potential lawyers from themselves. Really, the problem is that there's a terrible asymmetry of information for most applicants. Lower ranked schools report numbers that are significantly off, but an applicant unfamiliar with the reporting process might not be aware of it. Thus, an applicant to Hofstra law may think that she has a good chance at making $75,000 or more per year (median private reported), when in reality graduating from Hofstra won't give her those good of odds.

The economy tanking in 2007-2008 meant that there was less work for lawyers to do (fewer mergers, etc.). The overall demand for BigLaw lawyers fell.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby flcath » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:14 pm

Citizen Genet wrote:Except capping it is just a means to artificially inflate lawyer's salaries or to "protect" potential lawyers from themselves.


No, it isn't. What's artificial is the government providing students with tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars in loans to go to law school.

The idea that the government would then be wrong (GASP SOCIALISM) to cap the number of people it hands this free money to is retarded.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:20 pm

I really think there should be a mandatory LSAT score minimum (something like a 155) that is necessary to apply to any law schools. That and getting rid of pathetic TTTT's would help the situation some.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby timbs4339 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:57 pm

At top schools, the economy is really hurting some graduates. With biglaw cutting classes, federal government on a hiring freeze, clerkships going to associates who were laid off from law firms, and prestigious public interest organizations able to take on deferred associates for free rather than hire a recent graduate, there is simply nowhere for some people from top schools to go (as an unemployed 3L from CCN I feel boxed in everywhere because the market is so insanely competitive right now). This obviously trickles down to other Tier 1 schools who before the recession had respectable placement rates but now find themselves competing with T14 grads.

However, at lower ranked schools the economy simply exacerbated a problem that has been going on for years, which is that law school is really expensive and does not teach you how to be a lawyer so that when you graduate you are dependent on finding someone who will actually teach you those skills. And there are so many law graduates looking for these types of jobs at smaller firms and in state and local government that these places can pay people precisely dick (literally nothing) and still have admitted attorneys lined up to take hourly gigs for 12/hour or volunteer internships at attorney generals offices. Couple this with the outsourcing or insourcing of temp work (do a forum search for areyouinsane for some of the glory days of being a temp attorney) and you have a serious long-term sustainability issue which nobody in power cares about fixing because that would require sacrifice, which isn't really a widely shared value among the people in charge of the profession.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby flcath » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:59 pm

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Last edited by flcath on Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lawdooder
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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby lawdooder » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:15 pm

flcath wrote:The next TTT grad that kills himself after going jobless (it happens all the time) should do so by self-immolating on the steps of his law school.


I don't get it. Weren't you psyched when you got into your T25?

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby flcath » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
flcath wrote:The next TTT grad that kills himself after going jobless (it happens all the time) should do so by self-immolating on the steps of his law school.


I don't get it. Weren't you psyched when you got into your T25?

Sorry if you were offended, bro. (Though anon was inappropriate)

The job search puts everybody on edge.

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:27 pm

Can we just get the stupid fucking federal government out of the student loan business? That would solve a lot of problems, including the depressed salaries and overabundance of attorneys.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby lawdooder » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:27 pm

flcath wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
flcath wrote:The next TTT grad that kills himself after going jobless (it happens all the time) should do so by self-immolating on the steps of his law school.


I don't get it. Weren't you psyched when you got into your T25?

Sorry if you were offended, bro. (Though anon was inappropriate)

The job search puts everybody on edge.



Are you still at ND? How's the job serach going

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby flcath » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:31 pm

lawdooder wrote:
flcath wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
flcath wrote:The next TTT grad that kills himself after going jobless (it happens all the time) should do so by self-immolating on the steps of his law school.


I don't get it. Weren't you psyched when you got into your T25?

Sorry if you were offended, bro. (Though anon was inappropriate)

The job search puts everybody on edge.



Are you still at ND? How's the job serach going

Yeah. Chose to stay on LR at ND rather than jump to Mich/Penn. Dinged at SLS (duh) and CLS as a [HI I'M THE WORD FILTER. THIS PERSON MIGHT BE A DICK.] applicant.

Not well, friend. Second-guessing like a mofo. On the other hand, if I'd transferred to Mich and STILL couldn't find a job (paying $45K/yr, vice my $12K at ND)... I'd be looking for a cool spot in the Lawyer's Club to hang myself.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby lawdooder » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:34 pm

Which market did you target

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:35 pm

OP here. So I see most of the focus about the struggling legal market is centered about the TT and TTT and etc etc. Are you saying that T1 law school is still a legitimate, smart option regardless of the market?

Also, while hiring might be low at the moment, wouldnt it be a good option for someone who is business savy and know how to adverties/market well to open his own law office and be a solo practitioner? I know several extremely successful attorney, and all of them reached that success by opening their own practice. Not one via BigLaw

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. So I see most of the focus about the struggling legal market is centered about the TT and TTT and etc etc. Are you saying that T1 law school is still a legitimate, smart option regardless of the market?

Also, while hiring might be low at the moment, wouldnt it be a good option for someone who is business savy and know how to adverties/market well to open his own law office and be a solo practitioner? I know several extremely successful attorney, and all of them reached that success by opening their own practice. Not one via BigLaw


What kind of starting salary do you want? What kind of salary do you want after 10 years of practice?

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:42 pm

flcath wrote:
Not well, friend. Second-guessing like a mofo. On the other hand, if I'd transferred to Mich and STILL couldn't find a job (paying $45K/yr, vice my $12K at ND)... I'd be looking for a cool spot in the Lawyer's Club to hang myself.



which market did you target? stats?

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:43 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here. So I see most of the focus about the struggling legal market is centered about the TT and TTT and etc etc. Are you saying that T1 law school is still a legitimate, smart option regardless of the market?

Also, while hiring might be low at the moment, wouldnt it be a good option for someone who is business savy and know how to adverties/market well to open his own law office and be a solo practitioner? I know several extremely successful attorney, and all of them reached that success by opening their own practice. Not one via BigLaw


What kind of starting salary do you want? What kind of salary do you want after 10 years of practice?


Well, if you know how to market yourself and advertise well and lets say you have a general practice that practies criminal law, family law, and personal injury, if you can get 1 clients from a couple of your practice areas i think you'd be in pretty good shape...

I work for a solo practitioner criminal defense lawyer who didnt even go to a ABA accredited law school and he makes just as much, if not more than a biglaw partner (not senior partner). Just him and I(his assistant).

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here. So I see most of the focus about the struggling legal market is centered about the TT and TTT and etc etc. Are you saying that T1 law school is still a legitimate, smart option regardless of the market?

Also, while hiring might be low at the moment, wouldnt it be a good option for someone who is business savy and know how to adverties/market well to open his own law office and be a solo practitioner? I know several extremely successful attorney, and all of them reached that success by opening their own practice. Not one via BigLaw


What kind of starting salary do you want? What kind of salary do you want after 10 years of practice?


Well, if you know how to market yourself and advertise well and lets say you have a general practice that practies criminal law, family law, and personal injury, if you can get 1 clients from a couple of your practice areas i think you'd be in pretty good shape...

I work for a solo practitioner criminal defense lawyer who didnt even go to a ABA accredited law school and he makes just as much, if not more than a biglaw partner (not senior partner). Just him and I(his assistant).


Problem is, these are rare. Most fail. Malpractice insurance, lack of complete experience, etc. It's like that stat where only 25% of restaurants or something succeed a year out or something. Of course some can do it, but tbh, I'd like my odds better of going to vegas and putting my life savings down on black. I am almost sure that would be wayyyy better odds than going to a TTT with the hopes of using my business savvy to pay off $150k in loans and make it in my own start-up law firm.

And OP, read the posts more carefully. While T1 and T14 schools are wiser investments, a lot of people in the top schools are struggling too. Bad economy + poorly regulated legal profession = lose (and by this I mean whatever someone prefers -- too much fed money, asymmetry in information, too many law schools, ABA doing jack diddly squat, etc.)

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby rayiner » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here. So I see most of the focus about the struggling legal market is centered about the TT and TTT and etc etc. Are you saying that T1 law school is still a legitimate, smart option regardless of the market?

Also, while hiring might be low at the moment, wouldnt it be a good option for someone who is business savy and know how to adverties/market well to open his own law office and be a solo practitioner? I know several extremely successful attorney, and all of them reached that success by opening their own practice. Not one via BigLaw


What kind of starting salary do you want? What kind of salary do you want after 10 years of practice?


Well, if you know how to market yourself and advertise well and lets say you have a general practice that practies criminal law, family law, and personal injury, if you can get 1 clients from a couple of your practice areas i think you'd be in pretty good shape...

I work for a solo practitioner criminal defense lawyer who didnt even go to a ABA accredited law school and he makes just as much, if not more than a biglaw partner (not senior partner). Just him and I(his assistant).


You only see the people who succeed, not all the other ones who fail. If you're working for a solo, he's necessarily successful, otherwise he wouldn't be able to hire anyone. You never see all the people who try to go solo right out of law school, fail, and work bullshit service jobs with their JD. The latter is far, far, far, more likely than the former.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Pato_09 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:31 pm

You only see the people who succeed, not all the other ones who fail. If you're working for a solo, he's necessarily successful, otherwise he wouldn't be able to hire anyone. You never see all the people who try to go solo right out of law school, fail, and work bullshit service jobs with their JD. The latter is far, far, far, more likely than the former.[/quote]

I agree. My brother is a graduate from Top 40, has a LLM in Tax, and was kinda lucky working for a tax partner (since 1L) and was promoted partner when he graduated. It is probably rare that this happens, but it is possible.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:45 pm

.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby keg411 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:14 pm

flcath wrote:Yeah. Chose to stay on LR at ND rather than jump to Mich/Penn. Dinged at SLS (duh) and CLS as a [HI I'M THE WORD FILTER. THIS PERSON MIGHT BE A DICK.] applicant.

Not well, friend. Second-guessing like a mofo. On the other hand, if I'd transferred to Mich and STILL couldn't find a job (paying $45K/yr, vice my $12K at ND)... I'd be looking for a cool spot in the Lawyer's Club to hang myself.


Hate to break it to you and make you second-guess more, but Mich [HI I'M THE WORD FILTER. THIS PERSON MIGHT BE A DICK.] are doing really really well overall. Even I got market BigLaw and I was ready to pack my bags and go home about a month ago. The one thing I learned from transferring is that the "name" of your school sometimes really makes a difference in terms of getting a CB vs. not getting one. (Though I know of people at my old TT that did plenty well, at least with my type grades).

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby flcath » Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:42 pm

lawdooder wrote:Which market did you target


I had a really detailed response typed out for you, but I thought the better of it. (Sorry) Suffice to say I applied broadly, albeit somewhat late in the game (very late August, early September).

I will say that I had better results everywhere else in the country than I did in Chicago. The market there sucks.

keg411 wrote:
flcath wrote:Yeah. Chose to stay on LR at ND rather than jump to Mich/Penn. Dinged at SLS (duh) and CLS as a [HI I'M THE WORD FILTER. THIS PERSON MIGHT BE A DICK.] applicant.

Not well, friend. Second-guessing like a mofo. On the other hand, if I'd transferred to Mich and STILL couldn't find a job (paying $45K/yr, vice my $12K at ND)... I'd be looking for a cool spot in the Lawyer's Club to hang myself.


Hate to break it to you and make you second-guess more, but Mich [HI I'M THE WORD FILTER. THIS PERSON MIGHT BE A DICK.] are doing really really well overall. Even I got market BigLaw and I was ready to pack my bags and go home about a month ago. The one thing I learned from transferring is that the "name" of your school sometimes really makes a difference in terms of getting a CB vs. not getting one. (Though I know of people at my old TT that did plenty well, at least with my type grades).

I believe it. In all honesty though, once I made LR at Notre Dame, the decision was pretty clear. I wasn't really on the fence.

It'll only be true second-guessing if I strike out totally, and I guess you second-guess everything at that point.

Edit: And while I totally believe that Mich [HI I'M THE WORD FILTER. THIS PERSON MIGHT BE A DICK.] are "doing really well overall," ND law reviewers are also "doing really well overall." The problem is with my personal situation. :(

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:05 pm

SwampRat88 wrote:Folks, if you're at a TT/TTT/TTTT, you will be lucky to be working in Shitlaw. End thread.

Not that black and white, so stop with the nonsense.

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Re: Question about the struggling legal market.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:11 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:
SwampRat88 wrote:Folks, if you're at a TT/TTT/TTTT, you will be lucky to be working in Shitlaw. End thread.

Not that black and white, so stop with the nonsense.


Excuse me? Stop with what nonsense, exactly? What do you not understand about the job prospects for TT/TTT/TTT graduates? I'm at a low-end T2 right now, and let me assure you, if you snag shitlaw, you should be thankful.




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