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Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:07 pm
by Anonymous User
So, I am completely torn on this decision. Full disclosure, I have no interest at practicing at a firm long term. I eventually want to work on civil rights litigation, so any of these would be merely a stepping stone to something better down the road. That said, if I'm going to work at a firm, at least for the summer and maybe for a while after school, I'm looking for the following things:
1) Fantastic training in litigation
2) Support for pro bono work (so I can keep myself up to date on the causes I really care about)
3) Strong practice areas in either appeallate/constitutional litigation or copyright/trademark litigation
I'm somewhat neutral on actual physical location. My boyfriend is in NYC, but he could potentially move. I like NYC, but I also have many friends in DC.
Thoughts, TLS? What do I do?
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:11 pm
by Anonymous User
1. Debevoise has a pretty strong litigation department.
2. Debevoise has amazing support for pro bono.
3. Debevoise has an amazing copyright/trademark group.
Debevoise
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:14 pm
by Anonymous User
Gibson Dunn DC has one of the strongest appellate litigation practices in the country. Since you expressed an interest in appellate litigation, I suggest that you choose GDC.
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:17 pm
by Blindmelon
Not Weil - you can't go wrong with the others. Given your interests, I would lean PW.
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:21 pm
by Anonymous User
I would lean strongly toward PW, for lit training and strong relationships with PI/government.
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:28 pm
by Anonymous User
All of these except for Weil provide great opportunities in your areas of interest. I'd say go between Paul Weiss and Debevoise and try to find your fit since I find them to be very different in terms of culture. Both have very strong pro bono committments, with an edge to PW in quality of litigation in most areas.
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:50 pm
by Anonymous User
I summered at Paul, Weiss last summer and I have to say that the three things that are important to you REALLY sound like Paul, Weiss's bread and butter, I think going elsewhere would be a mistake.
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:10 pm
by imchuckbass58
Anonymous User wrote:I summered at Paul, Weiss last summer and I have to say that the three things that are important to you REALLY sound like Paul, Weiss's bread and butter, I think going elsewhere would be a mistake.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. I would actually say in the absence of a strong cultural preference, it would be a mistake to go to Paul Weiss, not the other way around:
(1) Training: I'm sure Paul Weiss claims to have great training, and for all I know, it's true. Then again, I'm sure all these other firms also claim to have great training, and I'm sure everyone there would also say it's true. Wash.
(2) Pro Bono: Every law firm claims to be dedicated to pro bono. But, if you take a look at the American Lawyer's pro bono subscore for the A-list, or the Pro Bono Scorecard (based on pro bono hours per lawyer and % of lawyers doing pro bono) Gibson Dunn and Debevoise have considerably higher pro bono scores than Paul Weiss or Weil. (
http://www.law.com/jsp/tal/PubArticleTA ... 2498033012) (
http://www.law.com/jsp/tal/PubArticleTA ... 2498760284)
(3) Practice areas. Debevoise is Band 1 both nationally and in New York for Copyright/Trademark litigation, and is generally acknowledged to have one of the best departments in the country. Paul Weiss is not ranked nationally and is Band 3 in New York. Gibson Dunn has a Band 1 appellate practice both nationally and in DC, Paul Weiss is not ranked.
http://www.chambersandpartners.com/USA/ ... 1#org_3835
http://www.chambersandpartners.com/USA/Editorial/42616
I think your choice is between Gibson Dunn DC and Debevoise, with NY vs. DC, appellate vs. copyright/trademark, and general firm culture being the deciders. Mostly geography though.
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:40 pm
by Anonymous User
Paul Weiss...please let Gibson know so they can free up a spot for those of us waiting who want Gibson long-term...and DC. kthx
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:42 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:Gibson Dunn DC has one of the strongest appellate litigation practices in the country. Since you expressed an interest in appellate litigation, I suggest that you choose GDC.
Unless OP plans on going to a CoA clerkship, they'll never touch appellate work at Gibson...or at least not substantive work.
Edit: This is based on what I was told during my GDC(DC) callback. The only non-CoA person the appellate litigator knew of worked for the solicitor general's office. My guess is those recommending GC know nothing about it other than it's ranking...
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:44 pm
by Anonymous User
Gibson Dunn DC. Civil rights litigation, by its nature, is going to be more DC focused and more appellate litigation focused. You will be right down the street from the DOJ Civil Rights division and you will become a fantastic writer working at a firm like Gibson DC. You will probably end up doing more doc review in a large NYC firm, and your work will be more likely to be finance focused litigation. This is really a pretty easy decision in favor of Gibson Dunn DC.
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:45 pm
by Old Gregg
Anonymous User wrote:Anonymous User wrote:Gibson Dunn DC has one of the strongest appellate litigation practices in the country. Since you expressed an interest in appellate litigation, I suggest that you choose GDC.
Unless OP plans on going to a CoA clerkship, they'll never touch appellate work at Gibson...or at least not substantive work.
Came here to say this.
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:56 pm
by 03121202698008
They are all good choices but if you're bf is in NYC, you'll probably be happier there. You won't get any appellate work at Gibson without a CoA clerkship. And, the fact you're in DC does not mean most civil rights work will happen there. That is ludicrous. ยง1983 actions are filed in the local district court by private actors...very rarely by the federal government. Appellate civil rights work happens in DC but this is reserved for ex-CoA/SC clerks. This isn't white collar where you are mainly negotiating with the DoJ and thus it's there. Nor do any of those firms really do a lot of civil rights work. (Gibson in particular, they do appellate work but as mentioned you won't see it.)
Also, PI is all about connections so you should be working in the city you eventually want to live in permanently. That way you can establish connections with pro bono work and leverage those.
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:37 pm
by Renzo
GDC. They're strong in litigation, and being in DC will make it easier for you to get connected to and to network with people who might be able to help you transition to the kind of work you really want to do.
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:51 pm
by Old Gregg
They're strong in litigation, and being in DC
They're not even ranked on chambers for general commercial litigation in DC. And their appellate group, as mentioned earlier in this thread, will not be touched by the OP.
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:07 am
by Anonymous User
They're not even ranked on chambers for general commercial litigation in DC. And their appellate group, as mentioned earlier in this thread, will not be touched by the OP.
If OP has offers from all of the four on this list, I'd say there's at least a shot.
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:08 am
by TheFriendlyBarber
Paul, Weiss.
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:11 am
by Anonymous User
Fresh Prince wrote:They're strong in litigation, and being in DC
They're not even ranked on chambers for general commercial litigation in DC. And their appellate group, as mentioned earlier in this thread, will not be touched by the OP.
That doesn't mean they're not a good firm for litigation. Several great firms have offices in DC that aren't ranked by Chambers. For example, Boies Schiller isn't ranked by Chambers for DC. If you were to work at BSF, you would no doubt get great experience and be at one of the best litigation firms in the country. The important thing is what cases you're staffed on and the type of clients that the firm attracts.
All three firms are great, but I would tend to lean towards Paul Weiss based on what you're looking for in a firm.
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:15 am
by Renzo
Fresh Prince wrote:They're strong in litigation, and being in DC
They're not even ranked on chambers for general commercial litigation in DC. And their appellate group, as mentioned earlier in this thread, will not be touched by the OP.
They're not strong in
general commercial litigation in DC--that's why they're not ranked. Who would bring commercial disputes to DC to have them adjudicated? OP would likely be doing white collar and regulatory litigation there.
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:18 am
by Old Gregg
Anonymous User wrote:Fresh Prince wrote:They're strong in litigation, and being in DC
They're not even ranked on chambers for general commercial litigation in DC. And their appellate group, as mentioned earlier in this thread, will not be touched by the OP.
That doesn't mean they're not a good firm for litigation. Several great firms have offices in DC that aren't ranked by Chambers. For example, Boies Schiller isn't ranked by Chambers for DC. If you were to work at BSF, you would no doubt get great experience and be at one of the best litigation firms in the country. The important thing is what cases you're staffed on and the type of clients that the firm attracts.
All three firms are great, but I would tend to lean towards Paul Weiss based on what you're looking for in a firm.
Firm might be great for litigation, but that doesn't imply strength in litigation in every office. If you think you'll be under David Boies's tutelage in BSF Oakland, you're out of your mind. And no, I'd never take Boies DC, even if it was ranked by Chambers. Just because the firm is strong in litigation in NYC, doesn't mean every one of its offices is strong. In fact, many of their other offices were formed by mergers with local law firms. If they weren't good at litigation before, how does being part of a larger firm with everything else unchanged locally make them any better at it?
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:42 pm
by Karneval03
Fresh Prince wrote:They're strong in litigation, and being in DC
They're not even ranked on chambers for general commercial litigation in DC.
And their appellate group, as mentioned earlier in this thread, will not be touched by the OP.
This may be the case at other firms, but it is not the case at GDC. I spoke with several associates there who did not clerk and who were doing very interesting appellate work. I was specifically told that you don't need to clerk in order to do appellate work. There is enough to go around. And they really have no interest in attracting people with a stated interest in appellate work under false pretenses.
Of course clerking is great if you want to do appellate work. It is one thing to say in general that if you want to be a big-name appellate partner some day you ought to clerk, it is another to say that you wont "touch" appellate work unless you clerk.
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:56 pm
by Anonymous User
Karneval03 wrote:Fresh Prince wrote:They're strong in litigation, and being in DC
They're not even ranked on chambers for general commercial litigation in DC.
And their appellate group, as mentioned earlier in this thread, will not be touched by the OP.
This may be the case at other firms, but it is not the case at GDC. I spoke with like 10 associates there who did not clerk and who were doing very interesting appellate work (even Supreme Court level work in one case). I was specifically told by recruiting attorneys and partners that I do not need to clerk in order to do appellate work. There is enough to go around. And they really have no interest in attracting people with a stated interest in appellate work under false pretenses.
Of course clerking is great if you want to do appellate work. It is one thing to say in general that if you want to be a big-name appellate partner some day you ought to clerk, it is another to say that you wont "touch" appellate work unless you clerk.
GDC has a free market system and if you go to GDC and say you want to do appellate work, they will give you an appellate assignment. If you do a good job on that assignment, it will lead to more appellate opportunities. If you do a lousy job on that assignment, you will probably not be getting more opportunities, regardless whether you clerked.
I do not understand why some people on this forum seem to be insisting on the rumor that "at GDC you can't touch appellate work unless you clerk" despite that fact that a number of people with inside knowledge have weighed in on a number of threads to say that this is not true.
If you have actual knowledge of the firm to base this on, then please enlighten us. Otherwise, we are not doing anybody favors by spreading rumors that have already been shown to be false.
FWIW, this directly contradicts what I was told during my callback at GDC in DC. Appellate people have CoA clerkships. The free market means you can take them if a partner is willing to give them to you, but that is very rare and never occurs in the first few years when OP would be working there.
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:11 pm
by Karneval03
Strange. The message I got (same office, DC) was the opposite and was consistent across the board. At my callback and return visits I talked to several first and second year associates, many from my same school, who did not clerk and who were currently doing appellate work. If anything it seems to me like it may be the other way around - it may be easier to get initial appellate work early on, but as you go up the totem pole of seniority (and thus taking on more responsibility for a case) it may be harder if you didn't clerk (?). Anyway, sorry to high-jack the thread, but as I will be working there next summer, I would be interested to know who you talked to that told you otherwise. Feel free to pm me.
Re: Paul Weiss NYC, Weil NYC, Debevoise NYC, or Gibson Dunn DC?
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:30 pm
by Anonymous User
Karneval03 wrote:
Strange. The message I got (same office, DC) was the opposite and was consistent across the board. At my callback and return visits I talked to several first and second year associates, many from my same school, who did not clerk and who were currently doing appellate work. If anything it seems to me like it may be the other way around - it may be easier to get initial appellate work early on, but as you go up the totem pole of seniority (and thus taking on more responsibility for a case) it may be harder if you didn't clerk (?). Anyway, sorry to high-jack the thread, but as I will be working there next summer, I would be interested to know who you talked to that told you otherwise. Feel free to pm me.
Sorry, it's too small of a world. I'm not outing myself like that...too easily identifiable. I enjoyed my visit though. Its definitley a great firm, just doesn't meet OPs needs. I'm sure you'll have a great summer.