Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

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Anonymous User
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Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:08 pm

So I struck out. I'm a JD/LLM, whiffed at 2L going 0/2 on CBs on about 24 screeners, whiffed at 3L going 0/14 on CBs on 65 screeners. At a T14, slightly below median GPA with fairly generic WE, a bit boring/awkward personality, and no particularly distinguishing interests beyond corporate transactions or financial litigation. I've done about 60 informational interviews, 4-5 mock interviews, the regular networking circuit and mass mailings to firms and government. CSO says to keep trying as new deadlines come up for small firms/government and keep coming in for mocks, but I'm wondering what other resources exist? A couple partners said to never go to a headhunter as a new lawyer, but where else can I go for interview training and job opportunities?

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Re: Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So I struck out. I'm a JD/LLM, whiffed at 2L going 0/2 on CBs on about 24 screeners, whiffed at 3L going 0/14 on CBs on 65 screeners. At a T14, slightly below median GPA with fairly generic WE, a bit boring/awkward personality, and no particularly distinguishing interests beyond corporate transactions or financial litigation. I've done about 60 informational interviews, 4-5 mock interviews, the regular networking circuit and mass mailings to firms and government. CSO says to keep trying as new deadlines come up for small firms/government and keep coming in for mocks, but I'm wondering what other resources exist? A couple partners said to never go to a headhunter as a new lawyer, but where else can I go for interview training and job opportunities?


How do you go 0/14???????????? How do you get 65 screeners as a 3L? I call bs.

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Grizz
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Re: Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby Grizz » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:11 pm

Figure out why you went 0/14 on CBs. That's insane.

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Re: Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So I struck out. I'm a JD/LLM, whiffed at 2L going 0/2 on CBs on about 24 screeners, whiffed at 3L going 0/14 on CBs on 65 screeners. At a T14, slightly below median GPA with fairly generic WE, a bit boring/awkward personality, and no particularly distinguishing interests beyond corporate transactions or financial litigation. I've done about 60 informational interviews, 4-5 mock interviews, the regular networking circuit and mass mailings to firms and government. CSO says to keep trying as new deadlines come up for small firms/government and keep coming in for mocks, but I'm wondering what other resources exist? A couple partners said to never go to a headhunter as a new lawyer, but where else can I go for interview training and job opportunities?


How do you go 0/14???????????? How do you get 65 screeners as a 3L? I call bs.

I said I'm a JD/LLM, so for OCI purposes, firms consider me a 2L since I'm looking for an SA position after my 3L year, before my LLM. And I'm certainly not proud of going 0/14. Like I said, I have a slightly awkward personality. I tend to hit it off with some subset of interviewers who don't put everything on GPA, but then don't hit it off with all four people at the firm on the CB.

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Re: Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:06 pm

Grizz wrote:Figure out why you went 0/14 on CBs. That's insane.

Trust me, I've tried to decipher a trend. My general thoughts were:
One was non-legal consulting and thought I was insufficiently creative;
One was in my GPA range, large class, great tone to the CB, but nothing;
One was below my GPA range, in my LLM field, but tiny class, poor CB-offer ratio;
One was below my GPA range, in a related LLM field, but tiny class, poor CB-offer ratio;
One was way way above my GPA range, in a related field, but CB feedback was that I was not "rigid" enough to their field specialty;
Three were judges who indicated they had always hired from their home state (not mine) or in bankruptcy (not my field);
One was slightly above my GPA range, in my field, great tone to CB, but tiny class and poor CB-offer ratio;
Two were very very far outside my home market and only partially touched on my LLM field, good tone, but nothing;
One was above my GPA and in a totally unrelated field, besides having a poor CB-offer ratio;
One was at my GPA, in my field, but I got the CB through a family friend and the recruiter said they were wrapping up the hiring season so I assume it was a pity CB;
One was in my geographic area, but only touched on my field and had a small class and large number of callbacks of people who went to school in the area as well.

I suspect the reason I got the callbacks at some were that they did my specialty and the screener liked it, but they tended to have such a large number of CBs relative to positions or offers that they could pick someone every CB interviewer was likely to hit it off with. Others were very far outside my field or in places I have no geographic connection to and I imagine they did a CB on the novelty of my LLM or some of my WE. Two though I have no clue whatsoever on. I've tried to learn to relax in an interview and be the bro/frat-type my CSO adviser says gets offers at my GPA level, but it's fairly difficult to alter those kind of personality traits on the fly.

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Re: Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby kahechsof » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:16 pm

Still, where the blazes did you get 65 screeners?
Also, why is an LLM interested in corporate transactions and financial litigation? If you are taking a tax LLM, you should be interested in tax. If you are taking an LLM in BS, you should be interested in whatever that BS happens to be.

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dood
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Re: Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby dood » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:22 pm

u fucking beta ass loser. look at ur statements about why u failed...u blame everything and everyone besides urself. do urself a favor, read 7 habits of highly effective people. heres the short version: winners win by IDing thier losing habits and replacing them with winning ones. it's not about pretending to be a "bro" with a false sense of confident for an interview. it's about not being a fucking loser in life. take it from someone who went perfect CB::offer ratio.

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dood
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Re: Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby dood » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:24 pm

sorry about my language, but u should really read 7 habits.

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Re: Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:38 pm

dood wrote:u fucking beta ass loser. look at ur statements about why u failed...u blame everything and everyone besides urself. do urself a favor, read 7 habits of highly effective people. heres the short version: winners win by IDing thier losing habits and replacing them with winning ones. it's not about pretending to be a "bro" with a false sense of confident for an interview. it's about not being a fucking loser in life. take it from someone who went perfect CB::offer ratio.

No, I failed because of myself. I earned the grades I did and I performed the way I did in my interviews. It wasn't big bad firms or mean professors, it was that my personality does not align with what most law firms are looking for and given longer-shots of firms with low CB:offer ratios, I'm not surprised they found people who were better fits. Thank you though for the advice on the book. That is the sort of thing I came here looking for.

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dood
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Re: Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby dood » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
dood wrote:u fucking beta ass loser. look at ur statements about why u failed...u blame everything and everyone besides urself. do urself a favor, read 7 habits of highly effective people. heres the short version: winners win by IDing thier losing habits and replacing them with winning ones. it's not about pretending to be a "bro" with a false sense of confident for an interview. it's about not being a fucking loser in life. take it from someone who went perfect CB::offer ratio.

No, I failed because of myself. I earned the grades I did and I performed the way I did in my interviews. It wasn't big bad firms or mean professors, it was that my personality does not align with what most law firms are looking for and given longer-shots of firms with low CB:offer ratios, I'm not surprised they found people who were better fits. Thank you though for the advice on the book. That is the sort of thing I came here looking for.


sorry again for calling u a loser and the profanity. try the book, I relisten to it on audio once or twice a year just to reinforce the habits. good luck.

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Re: Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:33 pm

OP here again. I met with career services again and they are going to try to talk to some of the callbacks where it wasn't clear to me why I bumbled it. They also said they've noticed I have a tendency to speak too loudly or when I speak, to have a sharp tone. I come from New York and have a fairly nasal tone, but can that really explain this extreme level of failure? My personality and GPA aren't the greatest, but converting 12/65 firm screeners to CBs would seem to indicate something other than GPA or solely personality. Would it be worth looking into a life coach or some kind of career counseling from a headhunter service?

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Re: Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:38 pm

Just had a surprise screener on the phone with a firm I would love to work for, but don't have strong regional ties. My roommate was listening in from the next room and said I'm still shifting to "interview voice." I know I do this, My voice changes tone and has an annoying rhythm that sounds like I'm reading a script. The firms I have been rejected from got back to my requests for feedback and said I came across as too earnest, overprepared (knew too much about their cases and backgrounds) and overenthusiastic (too committed to what they did). They thought it was odd, and dinged me for, being able to describe too accurately what exactly their practice groups did and what exactly I would be expected to do as a first year, as if I had been over-trained for the purpose of interviewing with them (i.e. desperate). How do I untrain myself to be more naive, unsure, and uninformed? Vocal lessons? Going into the interview after a couple shots? Just not reading anything on what the firm does or my interviewers do? Clearly at this point I am desperate, but I have to find a way to be able to behave like a normal person in an interview.

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Re: Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:44 pm

OP, I know what you are talking about. I used to spend hours prepping for an interview, and come off as too overinformed about the firm. I switched up my tactics, and never spent more than 30 min prepping for a CB from that point on. I decided to talk more in generalities, and only hit specifics if they were truly unique or related to me in some way. I would only mention a case if it involved a company I worked for, or something like that. It had a much more natural flow, and since I wasn't rehearsing, I sounded genuine. The fact that you have an "interview voice" says quite a bit. It says that you put up a facade during interviews, and this evidenced by the things it sounds like you talked about, the way in which you talked about them, etc.

Bottom line: Ditch the act, and be more genuine. Don't go in super stiff thinking that digging through a website for useless details will make a difference. Speak to them as if its a normal conversation. Sure, have 3 or 4 general bulletpoints in your mind, but the extreme details are unimportant.

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Re: Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP, I know what you are talking about. I used to spend hours prepping for an interview, and come off as too overinformed about the firm. I switched up my tactics, and never spent more than 30 min prepping for a CB from that point on. I decided to talk more in generalities, and only hit specifics if they were truly unique or related to me in some way. I would only mention a case if it involved a company I worked for, or something like that. It had a much more natural flow, and since I wasn't rehearsing, I sounded genuine. The fact that you have an "interview voice" says quite a bit. It says that you put up a facade during interviews, and this evidenced by the things it sounds like you talked about, the way in which you talked about them, etc.

Bottom line: Ditch the act, and be more genuine. Don't go in super stiff thinking that digging through a website for useless details will make a difference. Speak to them as if its a normal conversation. Sure, have 3 or 4 general bulletpoints in your mind, but the extreme details are unimportant.

Ok, so a callback just came in for next week with a firm in my target market doing the thing I am most skilled at. Without looking at their website, I can sketch out exactly what a first year would do there, what things are changing in their field and how this branch office is somewhere I would like to start because of changes in the industry. I know if I go in with my standard approach I will blow it by sounding bizarrely passionate and informed about what is a boring area of law at a third-tier firm. How do I have a normal conversation about something that actually excites me?

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Re: Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby LeDique » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote: How do I have a normal conversation about something that actually excites me?


I really feel bad for you if you're old enough to graduate law school and don't know the answer to that question.

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Re: Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:08 pm

LeDique wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: How do I have a normal conversation about something that actually excites me?


I really feel bad for you if you're old enough to graduate law school and don't know the answer to that question.

I'm not happy about it either. But I do know that things most people find insanely boring, like the org chart of parties associated with a project finance deal or cashflow tranches of an investment, are what I love to talk about or read about casually. I read business case studies for fun, not for interview prep or learning. Going into an interview and being wide-eyed about being able to find something during due diligence that changes the deal price excites me, but makes the interviewer think I'm phony or crazy.

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Re: Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby lolwat » Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:14 pm

I think that problem is perfectly understandable. I honestly think it would be strange if you DON'T sound excited and knowledgable about something you're passionate about.

If that is actually a problem (my problem has always been seeming disinterested, if anything) then you might want to just take a step back and consciously curb your excitement. Sound knowledgable and informed but not overly so. Leave room to ask questions to "learn" from them... even if you already know what they're going to tell you.

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Re: Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby mrloblaw » Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:25 pm

lolwat wrote:I think that problem is perfectly understandable. I honestly think it would be strange if you DON'T sound excited and knowledgable about something you're passionate about.

If that is actually a problem (my problem has always been seeming disinterested, if anything) then you might want to just take a step back and consciously curb your excitement. Sound knowledgable and informed but not overly so. Leave room to ask questions to "learn" from them... even if you already know what they're going to tell you.



Learning when to ask questions that you already know the answers to (and appearing enthralled by the response) is one of the major keys to succeeding at the bottom rung of any ladder, IMO

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Re: Additional resources beyond CSO/networking

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:54 pm

OP here. Ended up going 0/16 on firm summer/permanent job callbacks. Last firm I interviewed with said I was 4/18 among the people they interviewed, but that they only had one opening. I accepted a position with the SEC for the summer between 3L and LLM. I know it is not permanent, but it is at least in the field I want and I can get funding from my school. I also got a job as an adjunct in a non-legal field at a local state college. It's depressing I won't reach my goal of a firm because of my personality, but I'm hopeful I can at least pay off my loans via something like PMF or other types of professional work. My only advice would be interviewing outside your logical markets, even if the firm will fly you out, isn't worth the effort because they are still looking for top grades or local talent.




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