Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

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Is there a drop in prestige and exit options going with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Yes, DPW and S&C are just a cut above.
18
43%
No, they're all in the same league.
24
57%
 
Total votes: 42

Anonymous User
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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:22 pm

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I was faced with a *similar* decision, and I had the benefit of speaking to a lot of partners with whom I'd worked in my pre-LS job. The consensus was that the S&C/DPW/CSM grouping was a little higher on the preftige scale. Granted, these were old guys--the same types that think NYU is second-rate to CLS (I consulted them during the LS selection process, too--ended up at NYU, heh), but it's worth noting. I imagine their opinion is rooted only in the fact that the other three have been around longer.


That was the CW in the 1990s, when nobody would've put Cleary in the top-tier of NYC corporate firms. In the last 15-20 years, however, Cleary has developed top-notch capital markets and M&A practices. Meanwhile, Cravath became "just another V5," moving the whole V2-V7 grouping close together with only WLRK being in a really different league in prestige and selectivity.

DPW and S&C are still slightly better firms in that they have a somewhat wider range top-tier practice areas, but I can't imagine that having a measurable impact on exit options. Remember, when you start looking for another job, you'll be interacting with recruiters. Recruiters know the lay of the land, and they know that Cleary by and large hires from exactly the same pool of people as CSM/S&C/DPW/STB.


That's what I was driving at. The Old Guard is probably the only group that thinks there is a difference between the two, and although you deal with recruiters from the start, sometimes it's the Old Guard that has the final say-so. But again, I'm not arguing that there is any meaningful difference to persuade OP to choose against the firm with which he found a better fit.

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rayiner
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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby rayiner » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I was faced with a *similar* decision, and I had the benefit of speaking to a lot of partners with whom I'd worked in my pre-LS job. The consensus was that the S&C/DPW/CSM grouping was a little higher on the preftige scale. Granted, these were old guys--the same types that think NYU is second-rate to CLS (I consulted them during the LS selection process, too--ended up at NYU, heh), but it's worth noting. I imagine their opinion is rooted only in the fact that the other three have been around longer.


That was the CW in the 1990s, when nobody would've put Cleary in the top-tier of NYC corporate firms. In the last 15-20 years, however, Cleary has developed top-notch capital markets and M&A practices. Meanwhile, Cravath became "just another V5," moving the whole V2-V7 grouping close together with only WLRK being in a really different league in prestige and selectivity.

DPW and S&C are still slightly better firms in that they have a somewhat wider range top-tier practice areas, but I can't imagine that having a measurable impact on exit options. Remember, when you start looking for another job, you'll be interacting with recruiters. Recruiters know the lay of the land, and they know that Cleary by and large hires from exactly the same pool of people as CSM/S&C/DPW/STB.


That's what I was driving at. The Old Guard is probably the only group that thinks there is a difference between the two, and although you deal with recruiters from the start, sometimes it's the Old Guard that has the final say-so. But again, I'm not arguing that there is any meaningful difference to persuade OP to choose against the firm with which he found a better fit.


By the time you've gotten to talking to the old guard you're going to live and die by your personality and ability to sell your work experience. The real value of a prestigious firm on your resume is getting through the recruiters who can't really tell the substantive difference between one resume and another.

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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:05 pm

How do you people get through life? Do you pick up some sort of consumer reports guide to paper products before you go shopping so that you can make sure you get the most prestigious toilet paper? Have you ever in your life made a decision for yourself, or do you just do whatever people tell you, so long as they tell you in an ordered list?


OP here. Yeah, because choosing what to wipe my ass with is exactly the same as choosing where to start my career? I think Cleary is a great firm, but I have reticence beyond just its marginally lower vault ranking. I'm interested in lit and going into usao type work, which makes me think s&c and dpw have better exit options in that regard.

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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby Renzo » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
How do you people get through life? Do you pick up some sort of consumer reports guide to paper products before you go shopping so that you can make sure you get the most prestigious toilet paper? Have you ever in your life made a decision for yourself, or do you just do whatever people tell you, so long as they tell you in an ordered list?


OP here. Yeah, because choosing what to wipe my ass with is exactly the same as choosing where to start my career? I think Cleary is a great firm, but I have reticence beyond just its marginally lower vault ranking. I'm interested in lit and going into usao type work, which makes me think s&c and dpw have better exit options in that regard.



So why didn't you lead by saying you have substantive thoughts in your head about what kind of work you want to do and where you want to end up, instead of leading with your fear of not blindly following the Vault rankings (which, by the way, you can also use to wipe your ass)?

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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
How do you people get through life? Do you pick up some sort of consumer reports guide to paper products before you go shopping so that you can make sure you get the most prestigious toilet paper? Have you ever in your life made a decision for yourself, or do you just do whatever people tell you, so long as they tell you in an ordered list?


OP here. Yeah, because choosing what to wipe my ass with is exactly the same as choosing where to start my career? I think Cleary is a great firm, but I have reticence beyond just its marginally lower vault ranking. I'm interested in lit and going into usao type work, which makes me think s&c and dpw have better exit options in that regard.


PLEASE go to DPW or S&C. I wouldn't want such a superficial person to be in my summer class.

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kwais
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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby kwais » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:23 pm

Renzo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
How do you people get through life? Do you pick up some sort of consumer reports guide to paper products before you go shopping so that you can make sure you get the most prestigious toilet paper? Have you ever in your life made a decision for yourself, or do you just do whatever people tell you, so long as they tell you in an ordered list?


OP here. Yeah, because choosing what to wipe my ass with is exactly the same as choosing where to start my career? I think Cleary is a great firm, but I have reticence beyond just its marginally lower vault ranking. I'm interested in lit and going into usao type work, which makes me think s&c and dpw have better exit options in that regard.



So why didn't you lead by saying you have substantive thoughts in your head about what kind of work you want to do and where you want to end up, instead of leading with your fear of not blindly following the Vault rankings (which, by the way, you can also use to wipe your ass)?


renzo, you are an asshole

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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Quote:
How do you people get through life? Do you pick up some sort of consumer reports guide to paper products before you go shopping so that you can make sure you get the most prestigious toilet paper? Have you ever in your life made a decision for yourself, or do you just do whatever people tell you, so long as they tell you in an ordered list?


OP here. Yeah, because choosing what to wipe my ass with is exactly the same as choosing where to start my career? I think Cleary is a great firm, but I have reticence beyond just its marginally lower vault ranking. I'm interested in lit and going into usao type work, which makes me think s&c and dpw have better exit options in that regard.



So why didn't you lead by saying you have substantive thoughts in your head about what kind of work you want to do and where you want to end up, instead of leading with your fear of not blindly following the Vault rankings (which, by the way, you can also use to wipe your ass)?


You strike me as a very sad and angry person. Criticism of the vault ranking aside, they have an impact on the industry the same way the equally flawed USNWR rankings do. Sad, but true.

I didn't even raise the Vault rankings (if you're training to be a lawyer, basic reading skills are a must) in my post, merely the point that a firm regarded as more prestigious, rightly or wrongly, might better position me for what I want to do after the firm. Apparently there are some people whose lives are so bleak that they have to read TLS regularly looking to pounce bitterly on people over fairly innocent questions. I don't think of Cleary as a lesser firm. Like I said, I liked them a great deal. I don't set the rules of the legal market though, I just have to figure them out and play by them.

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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby lionelhutz123 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:25 pm

Renzo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Quote:
How do you people get through life? Do you pick up some sort of consumer reports guide to paper products before you go shopping so that you can make sure you get the most prestigious toilet paper? Have you ever in your life made a decision for yourself, or do you just do whatever people tell you, so long as they tell you in an ordered list?


OP here. Yeah, because choosing what to wipe my ass with is exactly the same as choosing where to start my career? I think Cleary is a great firm, but I have reticence beyond just its marginally lower vault ranking. I'm interested in lit and going into usao type work, which makes me think s&c and dpw have better exit options in that regard.



So why didn't you lead by saying you have substantive thoughts in your head about what kind of work you want to do and where you want to end up, instead of leading with your fear of not blindly following the Vault rankings (which, by the way, you can also use to wipe your ass)?


renzo, you are an asshole


+1

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Old Gregg
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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Renzo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Quote:
How do you people get through life? Do you pick up some sort of consumer reports guide to paper products before you go shopping so that you can make sure you get the most prestigious toilet paper? Have you ever in your life made a decision for yourself, or do you just do whatever people tell you, so long as they tell you in an ordered list?


OP here. Yeah, because choosing what to wipe my ass with is exactly the same as choosing where to start my career? I think Cleary is a great firm, but I have reticence beyond just its marginally lower vault ranking. I'm interested in lit and going into usao type work, which makes me think s&c and dpw have better exit options in that regard.



So why didn't you lead by saying you have substantive thoughts in your head about what kind of work you want to do and where you want to end up, instead of leading with your fear of not blindly following the Vault rankings (which, by the way, you can also use to wipe your ass)?


renzo, you are an asshole


+1


+1

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Grizz
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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby Grizz » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:50 pm

[quote="Anonymous User
Criticism of the vault ranking aside, they have an impact on the industry the same way the equally flawed USNWR rankings do. Sad, but true. [/quote]
Not entirely.

Anonymous User
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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:53 pm

[quote="Anonymous User
Criticism of the vault ranking aside, they have an impact on the industry the same way the equally flawed USNWR rankings do. Sad, but true.

Not entirely.[/quote]

Not to the same degree perhaps, but they still do have an impact.

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Old Gregg
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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
[quote="Anonymous User
Criticism of the vault ranking aside, they have an impact on the industry the same way the equally flawed USNWR rankings do. Sad, but true.

Not entirely.


Not to the same degree perhaps, but they still do have an impact.[/quote]

They are irrelevant among practicing attorneys.

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rayiner
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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby rayiner » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
How do you people get through life? Do you pick up some sort of consumer reports guide to paper products before you go shopping so that you can make sure you get the most prestigious toilet paper? Have you ever in your life made a decision for yourself, or do you just do whatever people tell you, so long as they tell you in an ordered list?


OP here. Yeah, because choosing what to wipe my ass with is exactly the same as choosing where to start my career? I think Cleary is a great firm, but I have reticence beyond just its marginally lower vault ranking. I'm interested in lit and going into usao type work, which makes me think s&c and dpw have better exit options in that regard.


If you're interested in the USAO seriously consider DPW. They send a lot of people to those jobs.

Anonymous User
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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:26 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
[quote="Anonymous User
Criticism of the vault ranking aside, they have an impact on the industry the same way the equally flawed USNWR rankings do. Sad, but true.

Not entirely.


Not to the same degree perhaps, but they still do have an impact.


They are irrelevant among practicing attorneys.[/quote]

They reflect the opinions of practicing attorneys in NYC.

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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:They reflect the opinions of practicing attorneys in NYC.


That is someone's opinion when forced to rank firms, yes. You are truly a moron if you think you will ever be in a situation where you are going for a job/client and your competition is IDENTICAL to you but for they are at a vault firm ranked 2 higher than you and the person evaluating will know and make a decision based on that.

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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:They reflect the opinions of practicing attorneys in NYC.


That is someone's opinion when forced to rank firms, yes. You are truly a moron if you think you will ever be in a situation where you are going for a job/client and your competition is IDENTICAL to you but for they are at a vault firm ranked 2 higher than you and the person evaluating will know and make a decision based on that.


I don't think 2 places on Vault is meaningful, of course, but they're hardly "irrelevant" as the other poster implied.

To the extent that legal work for juniors is pretty fungible, I don't think it's an uncommon case at all that you're aiming for a job (or more likely, working with a recruiter who is aiming at many jobs) where all that really differentiates your resume is your firm.

I mean, you're a recruiter and you get a stack of resumes from 3rd years. They all majored in some bullshit liberal arts subject at some T50 undergrad. They all did diligence on some deals for GS/JPM/MS, drafted a few agreements from precedent, etc. What do you really have to go on to find the people you want? Or, say you're a recruiter looking for laterals. You're flipping through attorney bios on firm websites, and they are all more or less like the above. Which ones do you call?

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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:38 pm

Do you have a Paul Weiss offer? If so I'd go there hands down since you want to work at a USAO.

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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:55 pm

i was having lunch w/ two Cleary associates recently who marveled at the fact that people with Cleary offers tend to narrow down their choices to Cleary & S&C. These associates said the differences between the firm's cultures and work styles were so vast that it's hard to believe anyone could pit them against one another. OP, I'd suggest doing re-visits at each firm and figuring out what you feel.

Renzo
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Re: Exit Options/Prestige Drop with Cleary vs. DPW/S&C?

Postby Renzo » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:29 pm

kwais wrote:
Renzo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
How do you people get through life? Do you pick up some sort of consumer reports guide to paper products before you go shopping so that you can make sure you get the most prestigious toilet paper? Have you ever in your life made a decision for yourself, or do you just do whatever people tell you, so long as they tell you in an ordered list?


OP here. Yeah, because choosing what to wipe my ass with is exactly the same as choosing where to start my career? I think Cleary is a great firm, but I have reticence beyond just its marginally lower vault ranking. I'm interested in lit and going into usao type work, which makes me think s&c and dpw have better exit options in that regard.



So why didn't you lead by saying you have substantive thoughts in your head about what kind of work you want to do and where you want to end up, instead of leading with your fear of not blindly following the Vault rankings (which, by the way, you can also use to wipe your ass)?


renzo, you are an asshole


100% of people who know me would agree. However, I appreciate having it pointed out once in a while, because I often don't mean to be quite as big a jerk as I am, and this is one of those times.

OP: I'm sorry; that was more venomous than was called for. I don't know you (or, if I do, I don't know it, since you're anonymous), and you may very well be a completely tolerable person. What I should have said is that slavish devotion to lists made up by people who only care about selling advertising is no way to make decisions, and no way to go through life.

Throw your Vault guide away, and start asking substantive questions about the firms, both of people inside them and others in the industry. Try and develop a sense of where you want to be, and what will meet your own personal needs best, rather than relying on an extremely poorly done survey to tell you what your opinions should be. There are like five people on the planet that will care about prestige bump of 2 spots on the Vault rankings, and they are all far bigger assholes than I could ever aspire to be.




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