Charlotte, North Carolina

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:54 am

Anyone know Nelson Mullins first year associate rate?

cattleprod
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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby cattleprod » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:25 am

Charlotte, NC is a disaster right now. The two top employers (both banks) in the city are falling apart.

Wachovia was purchased by Wells Fargo, so the former HQ business is in decline as the merger gradually transfers more and more of the operations out of the Charlotte area.

Bank of America is the other huge employer and has announced 30,000 in layoffs, much of it in Charlotte NC. BofA is also moving more and more of the operations to NYC. It is just a matter of time before the HQ moves.

All of the law firms, that bulked up between 2000-2008 to service the banks, are now struggling to survive. The problems in Charlotte are not going to be resolved by a recovering economy. Wachovia business is fading away and Bank of America is shrinking and gradually moving north. This appears to be a structural change in the Charlotte market is beyond the current economic issues.

Avoid Charlotte NC if you have other options.

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:48 pm

cattleprod wrote:Charlotte, NC is a disaster right now. The two top employers (both banks) in the city are falling apart.

Wachovia was purchased by Wells Fargo, so the former HQ business is in decline as the merger gradually transfers more and more of the operations out of the Charlotte area.

Bank of America is the other huge employer and has announced 30,000 in layoffs, much of it in Charlotte NC. BofA is also moving more and more of the operations to NYC. It is just a matter of time before the HQ moves.

All of the law firms, that bulked up between 2000-2008 to service the banks, are now struggling to survive. The problems in Charlotte are not going to be resolved by a recovering economy. Wachovia business is fading away and Bank of America is shrinking and gradually moving north. This appears to be a structural change in the Charlotte market is beyond the current economic issues.

Avoid Charlotte NC if you have other options.


You say this based on...?

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby cattleprod » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
You say this based on...?


Living there, reading the news and knowing the market.

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:00 pm

cattleprod wrote:Charlotte, NC is a disaster right now. The two top employers (both banks) in the city are falling apart.

Wachovia was purchased by Wells Fargo, so the former HQ business is in decline as the merger gradually transfers more and more of the operations out of the Charlotte area.

Bank of America is the other huge employer and has announced 30,000 in layoffs, much of it in Charlotte NC. BofA is also moving more and more of the operations to NYC. It is just a matter of time before the HQ moves.

All of the law firms, that bulked up between 2000-2008 to service the banks, are now struggling to survive. The problems in Charlotte are not going to be resolved by a recovering economy. Wachovia business is fading away and Bank of America is shrinking and gradually moving north. This appears to be a structural change in the Charlotte market is beyond the current economic issues.

Avoid Charlotte NC if you have other options.


While I wouldn't quite say it's a "disaster," I would echo a lot of this post. Wachovia's key operations and such were highly centralized in Charlotte, and Wells will likely continue downsizing and spread things out a bit (as they've already started to do)-- it's just a matter of to what extent. BofA is gradually trying to reduce its general consumer banking profile to become more of a commercial/investment-oriented bank, so they'll probably be becoming more of a NY presence (and continuing layoffs in the process).

And as the banks go, so goes the rest of Charlotte. Accounting, consulting, and law firms all depend on banking for a substantial amount of their business, and they're all struggling. Industries that indirectly depend on banking, like real estate, are also in the dumps.

The good news is that there are some solid regional banks in the region that aren't going anywhere and will likely be picking up some of the slack left behind by Wells and BofA. I'm just not sure how much faith I'd put in those banks generating enough "biglaw"-caliber work to go around.

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:30 pm

Would some of you people with Charlotte care to speculate as to how this will affect the legal market in the long run?

Much appreciated.

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby cattleprod » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Would some of you people with Charlotte care to speculate as to how this will affect the legal market in the long run?

Much appreciated.


I think that the overall legal market in Charlotte will struggle even after the national economy recovers. The Law firms are having to fight for a smaller pie. Charlotte is losing their two largest employers. That has a trickle down effect on accounting, IT consulting, construction and every other business that feeds off of corporate HQs.

The public schools in Charlotte are a disaster, so it is a lousy place to consider raising a family. All of the families, that can afford to, move to neighboring counties to avoid Charlotte taxes and racial busing in the schools. If you want your kids to go to the school in your neighborhood? Forget it. They bus your kids around in bizarre ways. Total chaos with your schools changing every year. Be ready to pay for private school to avoid the nuts. Most of the middle class has moved out and just commute to Charlotte.

Our nickname for Charlotte is the future Detroit of the south.

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:07 am

cattleprod wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Would some of you people with Charlotte care to speculate as to how this will affect the legal market in the long run?

Much appreciated.


I think that the overall legal market in Charlotte will struggle even after the national economy recovers. The Law firms are having to fight for a smaller pie. Charlotte is losing their two largest employers. That has a trickle down effect on accounting, IT consulting, construction and every other business that feeds off of corporate HQs.

The public schools in Charlotte are a disaster, so it is a lousy place to consider raising a family. All of the families, that can afford to, move to neighboring counties to avoid Charlotte taxes and racial busing in the schools. If you want your kids to go to the school in your neighborhood? Forget it. They bus your kids around in bizarre ways. Total chaos with your schools changing every year. Be ready to pay for private school to avoid the nuts. Most of the middle class has moved out and just commute to Charlotte.

Our nickname for Charlotte is the future Detroit of the south.


Wow. This is the exact opposite feeling I got from my CB and talking with partners about the banks and public schools. The firm mentioned that their clients were diverse, so they wont be as affected by the banks. I also specifically asked about public schools because my wife is a teacher and they raved about the quality of them. I guess I just have to wait till next summer when I work there and figure it out myself.

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:41 pm

I'll be at RBH next summer.

Don't think Charlotte is a disaster overall, do think it is struggling, and I agree that the public school system is a disaster though. Charlotte is struggling much like the rest of the Country is struggling and I think the poster above' doomsday scenario is unwarranted. The cost of doing business, real estate, office space, cost of living for exec's far outweighs NYC, so I don't think BoA is going to pack up and go to NYC. And as for Wells Fargo, I can see local banks, such as Suntrust and BBT pick up much of the slack.

Bottom line, if you go to a firm that relies heavily on the banks, such as the national firms, i.e. Winston Strawn, Mayer Brown, etc. which are really small offices anyway, then yeah, it is much more of a risk. But stick with the larger regional firms, RBH, MVA, McGuireWoods, PP, and I don't think you should worry about job security resulting from economic pressures.

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby cattleprod » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
cattleprod wrote:The public schools in Charlotte are a disaster, so it is a lousy place to consider raising a family. All of the families, that can afford to, move to neighboring counties to avoid Charlotte taxes and racial busing in the schools. If you want your kids to go to the school in your neighborhood? Forget it. They bus your kids around in bizarre ways. Total chaos with your schools changing every year. Be ready to pay for private school to avoid the nuts. Most of the middle class has moved out and just commute to Charlotte.

Our nickname for Charlotte is the future Detroit of the south.


Wow. This is the exact opposite feeling I got from my CB and talking with partners about the banks and public schools. The firm mentioned that their clients were diverse, so they wont be as affected by the banks. I also specifically asked about public schools because my wife is a teacher and they raved about the quality of them. I guess I just have to wait till next summer when I work there and figure it out myself.


Lesson one: All lawyers are liars. The partners are trying to sell you something. Charlotte. Buyer beware.

The population of Mecklenburg County is 58% white. The population of the public school system is 33% white. This is mostly because the middle class (white and black) has fled the public school system. It is called "bright flight". Anyone that can afford it avoids the public school system in Charlotte. There were a lot of political games for racial busing going on the past 10 years. The school board was dominated by a lot of racist members who though the only way to educate poor people is to bus white kids halfway across the county to poor schools. So the school board has intentionally avoided building schools in the suburbs to create overcrowding in middle class and upper middle class neighborhoods. Over the past 10 years, anyone who could has just left the system. Now that the middle class has mostly fled the system, all that remains is poor kids on the federal free and reduced lunch program. Good teachers leave. All that is left is those with no other options.

Most move to Union County or just over the border into South Carolina. 30 minute drive to Charlotte downtown. Many business parks and jobs are moving over the border into South Carolina to avoid the mess in Charlotte. It is a very anti-business environment that is dominated by race based politics.

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Wow. This is the exact opposite feeling I got from my CB and talking with partners about the banks and public schools. The firm mentioned that their clients were diverse, so they wont be as affected by the banks. I also specifically asked about public schools because my wife is a teacher and they raved about the quality of them. I guess I just have to wait till next summer when I work there and figure it out myself.


I will also be in Charlotte next summer, working at one of the regional firms (RBH, MVA, McGuireWoods, PP, WC), and I heard the same thing during my callback. Care to out which firm you're working at? Maybe we got the same pitch...

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby los blancos » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:24 pm

Triangle > Charlotte
Triad > Charlotte

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby cattleprod » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:09 pm

los blancos wrote:Triangle > Charlotte
Triad > Charlotte


I would agree with that. Raleigh is likely to become the #1 city in North Carolina, not that being #1 in NC is that wonderful of a title. Sort of like being top of your class as Cooley Law School. It is still Cooley Law School and you have no future. That is most law jobs in North Carolina, not much of a future for most of them.

Raleigh seems to have it's act together, at least in comparisons with Charlotte. Charlotte is a basket case. The Detroit of the South.

Raleigh has an advantage with 3 major universities close by. Duke, Chapel Hill and Wake. That has created quite a lot of business activity around there. Charlotte was created primarily by Wachovia and Bank of America. Now that they are toast, not much left for Charlotte to claim as their advantage.

Cattleprod (ex-Charlotte resident)

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Bottom line, if you go to a firm that relies heavily on the banks, such as the national firms, i.e. Winston Strawn, Mayer Brown, etc. which are really small offices anyway, then yeah, it is much more of a risk. But stick with the larger regional firms, RBH, MVA, McGuireWoods, PP, and I don't think you should worry about job security resulting from economic pressures.


This is the most credited post so far. You look at those firms - Winston, Mayer Brown, Cadwalader, Alston (with exception of IP) - they all cut back. They depended on banks for a sufficient amount of work that Charlotte doesn't make as much sense for them. Regional firms - MVA, PP, WCSR, MW, K&L Gates (still basically the old Kennedy Covington) - are still in strong positions and will retain those positions. Charlotte can support firms of that size with the business going around. More importantly, hard work and good business development acumen still suffice to make partner at these places. Of all the things TLS focuses on, why going to NYC BigLaw out of the gate is the only option beyond me, especially when you can go to your home secondary market, make more than enough to pay back debt/live in the market, and get working on a partner track.

And to respond to a couple of other points:

Triad < Charlotte. If you think growth is limited in Charlotte, visit Greensboro and/or High Point.
Triangle is a great place, and probably will surpass Charlotte. But if "a school system in disarray" is one of the disqualifiers of Charlotte, please go read up on the last two years of Wake County Schools. Makes Charlotte look like a system of gold.

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby los blancos » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:04 am

I don't think NC is the Cooley of legal markets by any means. It's one of the fastest growing states in the country, particularly the Triangle. That's besides the obvious QoL advantages.



Anonymous User wrote:Triad < Charlotte. If you think growth is limited in Charlotte, visit Greensboro and/or High Point.



Isn't the Triad growing faster than Metrolina? It also has the aforementioned benefits of growing educational institutions, it's dirt cheap, and much of it is barely an hour from the Triangle. It's actually getting kind of difficult to discern where one begins and the other ends.

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:20 am

los blancos wrote:I don't think NC is the Cooley of legal markets by any means. It's one of the fastest growing states in the country, particularly the Triangle. That's besides the obvious QoL advantages.



Anonymous User wrote:Triad < Charlotte. If you think growth is limited in Charlotte, visit Greensboro and/or High Point.



Isn't the Triad growing faster than Metrolina? It also has the aforementioned benefits of growing educational institutions, it's dirt cheap, and much of it is barely an hour from the Triangle. It's actually getting kind of difficult to discern where one begins and the other ends.


Driving from Exit 269 in Chapel Hill --> Winston, there is a clear difference where the Triangle ends and the Triad begins. Ask anyone in Graham, Elon, or Burlington.

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby los blancos » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:
los blancos wrote:I don't think NC is the Cooley of legal markets by any means. It's one of the fastest growing states in the country, particularly the Triangle. That's besides the obvious QoL advantages.



Anonymous User wrote:Triad < Charlotte. If you think growth is limited in Charlotte, visit Greensboro and/or High Point.



Isn't the Triad growing faster than Metrolina? It also has the aforementioned benefits of growing educational institutions, it's dirt cheap, and much of it is barely an hour from the Triangle. It's actually getting kind of difficult to discern where one begins and the other ends.


Driving from Exit 269 in Chapel Hill --> Winston, there is a clear difference where the Triangle ends and the Triad begins. Ask anyone in Graham, Elon, or Burlington.



Where, then? My point was that places like Burlington and Graham are becoming bedroom communities. Lots of people commute from those places to either the Triad or Triangle, and those places aren't really part of either the Triad or Triangle. They're basically equidistant to CH/Durham and Gboro.

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:03 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Wow. This is the exact opposite feeling I got from my CB and talking with partners about the banks and public schools. The firm mentioned that their clients were diverse, so they wont be as affected by the banks. I also specifically asked about public schools because my wife is a teacher and they raved about the quality of them. I guess I just have to wait till next summer when I work there and figure it out myself.


I will also be in Charlotte next summer, working at one of the regional firms (RBH, MVA, McGuireWoods, PP, WC), and I heard the same thing during my callback. Care to out which firm you're working at? Maybe we got the same pitch...


While we got the same pitch, it wasnt from the same firm - Ill be working at one of the firms you didnt list.

I can definitely see the triangle taking over charlotte as the best region for business in NC, but anyone who says triad > charlotte has obviously not spent much time in the triad.

While I dont know much about the history of charlotte, Im pretty sure it will not become the detroit of the south - a city's whose history I am familiar with.

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby cattleprod » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:30 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Triangle is a great place, and probably will surpass Charlotte. But if "a school system in disarray" is one of the disqualifiers of Charlotte, please go read up on the last two years of Wake County Schools. Makes Charlotte look like a system of gold.


Wake County seems like they finanally got their act together in 2010.
They elected a new school board and stopped the racial excuses for busing kids all over the county to meet their skin color quota in each school.

The problem in Charlotte is that they are still trying to do the skin color game to mandate school busing.
Most parents are not interested in their kids having to ride a bus an extra hour every day.
They just want their kids to go to their neighborhood school.
That is why so many middle class families have given up on Charlotte schools. They either go private or move out of the county.

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:04 pm

cattleprod wrote:The problem in Charlotte is that they are still trying to do the skin color game to mandate school busing.
Most parents are not interested in their kids having to ride a bus an extra hour every day.
They just want their kids to go to their neighborhood school.
That is why so many middle class families have given up on Charlotte schools. They either go private or move out of the county.


Cattleprod, I'm interested to see if you have experience with any other Southern cities (like Nashville, Birmingham, New Orleans, etc.) that you might be able to compare the educational problems in Charlotte with. Thanks for the insight, it's been helpful.

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby cattleprod » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
cattleprod wrote:The problem in Charlotte is that they are still trying to do the skin color game to mandate school busing.
Most parents are not interested in their kids having to ride a bus an extra hour every day.
They just want their kids to go to their neighborhood school.
That is why so many middle class families have given up on Charlotte schools. They either go private or move out of the county.


Cattleprod, I'm interested to see if you have experience with any other Southern cities (like Nashville, Birmingham, New Orleans, etc.) that you might be able to compare the educational problems in Charlotte with. Thanks for the insight, it's been helpful.


I live in the Pacific Northwest now and am grateful every single day that I was able to transfer away from the racial morass of North Carolina. I lived there for four years and it was by far the most backwards area of the country I have ever lived in. The politics, the business environment and the schools are all obsessed with these racial games. For families that just want to go about their lives and raise their kids, people don't need the grief. My son had to change school 2 times because the school boundaries kept getting moved because of racial games being played by the school board. There was one family, described in the news, where their two kids (1st and 3rd grade) had to go to different elementary schools. They lived in the same house, but were assigned to different elementary schools because they needed more white children in one of the grades. They hadn't met their quota. It is just insane what those nuts in Charlotte public schools are doing.

Every place has it's pros and cons. You will find once you have children that schools and safety are high priorities. If you have options, Charlotte is not a good place to raise a child. The crime is really getting out of control.

http://www.crimeincharlotte.com/

Maybe if you are interested in criminal law it might be a place for you to practice.

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:24 pm

cattleprod wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Triangle is a great place, and probably will surpass Charlotte. But if "a school system in disarray" is one of the disqualifiers of Charlotte, please go read up on the last two years of Wake County Schools. Makes Charlotte look like a system of gold.


Wake County seems like they finanally got their act together in 2010.
They elected a new school board and stopped the racial excuses for busing kids all over the county to meet their skin color quota in each school.

The problem in Charlotte is that they are still trying to do the skin color game to mandate school busing.
Most parents are not interested in their kids having to ride a bus an extra hour every day.
They just want their kids to go to their neighborhood school.
That is why so many middle class families have given up on Charlotte schools. They either go private or move out of the county.


That school board (including the chairman) was essentially voted out two weeks ago. There is one runoff in November that will determine who has the majority. The Democrat won right at 50% in the runoff district and missed an outright win by 50 votes.

I think you oversimplify the argument, for what it's worth, but that's another argument for another thread.

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby cattleprod » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:That school board (including the chairman) was essentially voted out two weeks ago. There is one runoff in November that will determine who has the majority. The Democrat won right at 50% in the runoff district and missed an outright win by 50 votes.


That is too bad. It looks like Wake is going to start ignoring the parents and sending kids, based on their skin color, on buses all over the county again.
That type of racism in school assignment is just horrible.
Another reason to avoid Charlotte and Wake. NC is just a mess.

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:41 pm

cattleprod wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:That school board (including the chairman) was essentially voted out two weeks ago. There is one runoff in November that will determine who has the majority. The Democrat won right at 50% in the runoff district and missed an outright win by 50 votes.


That is too bad. It looks like Wake is going to start ignoring the parents and sending kids, based on their skin color, on buses all over the county again.
That type of racism in school assignment is just horrible.
Another reason to avoid Charlotte and Wake. NC is just a mess.

How does this work with the magnet schools where you test in?

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Re: Charlotte, North Carolina

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
cattleprod wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:That school board (including the chairman) was essentially voted out two weeks ago. There is one runoff in November that will determine who has the majority. The Democrat won right at 50% in the runoff district and missed an outright win by 50 votes.


That is too bad. It looks like Wake is going to start ignoring the parents and sending kids, based on their skin color, on buses all over the county again.
That type of racism in school assignment is just horrible.
Another reason to avoid Charlotte and Wake. NC is just a mess.

How does this work with the magnet schools where you test in?


AFAIK there is no "test in," it's just a lottery. You get preference if you have multiple kids in the system. Not really sure though. I went to one but I have no idea how I got there.




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