Should one worry about a Munger no offer?

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Should one worry about a Munger no offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:31 pm

I love the firm and it seems like a really good fit, but someone with other good (i.e. 100% offer rate) options, is there a substantial risk? And, while I understand that I am in a good position (and I am very thankful for that), I would appreciate not getting snarky "just go get a clerkship bro" responses. Thanks for the help.

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Re: Should one worry about a Munger no offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:11 pm

Exactly why I chose not to go there. If you have an offer at Munger you probably have other great choices. Why would you want to put yourself in that position?

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Re: Should one worry about a Munger no offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:19 pm

what is their offer/no offer rate?

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Re: Should one worry about a Munger no offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:19 pm

How many people did they no offer this year?

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Re: Should one worry about a Munger no offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How many people did they no offer this year?


From what I've heard either 1 or 2. They had 23 SAs, so the offer rate was 91-96%.

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Re: Should one worry about a Munger no offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:14 pm

Getting a federal clerkship is basically a requirement at MTO so I wouldn't be surprised if the reason those people didn't get offers is because they were unlikely to get federal clerkships.

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Re: Should one worry about a Munger no offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:32 pm

I know you don't want the, "just get a clerkship" answer... but honestly, are you competitive for one? What about a flyover district court clerkship? Are you planning on applying to clerkships regardless next year? If you want to do a clerkship anyway, and you love Munger, then go for it. Otherwise, maybe you should still go for it, but understand that it is a bit of a risk and no one at TLS can tell you how risk aversive you should be.

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Re: Should one worry about a Munger no offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I know you don't want the, "just get a clerkship" answer... but honestly, are you competitive for one? What about a flyover district court clerkship? Are you planning on applying to clerkships regardless next year? If you want to do a clerkship anyway, and you love Munger, then go for it. Otherwise, maybe you should still go for it, but understand that it is a bit of a risk and no one at TLS can tell you how risk aversive you should be.


OP: Let's just say I am significantly better than top 5% at broadly speaking (to protect anonymity) T14 and on LR. So although I do not really know the credentials of various courts, I think I should be competitive at least most D. Ct. and some COA. I do want to clerk, or at least right now I think I do, preferably on a D. Ct., and so I do see your point. And I guess I am not really asking how risky of a decision I should be making (which as you correctly note is a preference), but the level of the risk involved, so I can then see if I want to take that level of risk on. If all the no-offering was done on the basis of fit that is one thing, but if Munger has a policy of no-offering 2-3 clerks every summer, regardless of work product or fit, that is another. I do appreciate your perspective, and I think, all-things considered I will likely be accepting anyways.

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Re: Should one worry about a Munger no offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:21 am

Munger does no-offer a couple of people per year. I know you said you plan on accepting anyway, but you should know that. My friend worked there this summer and said that the people who were no-offered were perfectly pleasant people, but for whatever reason, the firm didn't think it was a good fit. This seems to be somewhat routine at Munger. Just thought I'd chip in my two cents. Good luck :)

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Re: Should one worry about a Munger no offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:29 am

Probably stating the obvious, but also bear in mind that with your grades you'd almost surely land something else at 3L OCI if you needed to. And you probably won't even need to, because you're so competitive for a clerkship (even if - and at this point I have no idea what I'm talking about; what I know comes from knowing a few clerks and their credentials - even if you didn't get one in, like, SDNY). If your gut is saying Munger, then go for it. Great opportunity, and there's almost no way you wouldn't land on your feet one way or another. Congrats!

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Re: Should one worry about a Munger no offer?

Postby luthersloan » Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:12 am

One thing you should keep in mind however, as far as 3L OCI goes, is that having been no offered is a fairly serious black mark, as it signals to other firms that there is something wrong with you. That being said if Munger is known for this, firms might be more understanding.

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Re: Should one worry about a Munger no offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:07 am

I asked the managing partner at Munger this question during my callback, and she told me that 1) they don't bring people in intending to no offer them, 2) everyone at the firm (including associates) votes on all new members, which is one reason Munger has more no offers than most firms, 3) most no offers are because the person's writing wasn't up to scratch, so if you are a good legal writer you have less to worry about, and 4) you get lots of feedback after turning assignments in and they make it clear during your mid-summer review if improvement is needed, so you'll have time to try and improve. She said most people don't get blindsided, but know it is coming.

Also keep in mind Munger makes it relatively easy to split (and I think many people working there do split), which means you can have an extra offer to fall back on if MTO doesn't work out.

Hope this helps.

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Re: Should one worry about a Munger no offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:27 pm

I know someone who was just no-offered by Munger. She is devastated.

I, personally, would not go anywhere near them.

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Re: Should one worry about a Munger no offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:25 pm

Munger generally no offers bad writers (specifically, bad memo writers). They don't do it randomly; they don't do it because the person doesn't fit. They do it because the person can't churn out a decent memo, even after substantial feedback. I think Munger recognizes it might scare away summer associates, but given its lean model and the fact that many associates make partner, the firm closely scrutinizes summer associates.

Moreover, Munger's offer rate isn't much worse than other well-regarded firms—firms that people fail to mention when talking about no-offers. For example, Gibson's firm-wide offer rate was 100/107 last year. Boies's was 16/18. Wachtell often no-offers one or two summer associates. By comparison, Munger's offer rate was something like 23/25 this past summer.

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Re: Should one worry about a Munger no offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Munger generally no offers bad writers (specifically, bad memo writers). They don't do it randomly; they don't do it because the person doesn't fit. They do it because the person can't churn out a decent memo, even after substantial feedback. I think Munger recognizes it might scare away summer associates, but given its lean model and the fact that many associates make partner, the firm closely scrutinizes summer associates.

Moreover, Munger's offer rate isn't much worse than other well-regarded firms—firms that people fail to mention when talking about no-offers. For example, Gibson's firm-wide offer rate was 100/107 last year. Boies's was 16/18. Wachtell often no-offers one or two summer associates. By comparison, Munger's offer rate was something like 23/25 this past summer.

let's just put it this way, here's your flowchart:

1) v50 (non-munger) -> offer -> trivial chance of making partner
2a) munger -> offer -> munger -> non-trivial chance of making partner
2b) munger -> no offer -> v50 -> trivial chance of making partner

easy to see, i'd pick #2 because its just the best of the 3 options.

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Re: Should one worry about a Munger no offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Munger generally no offers bad writers (specifically, bad memo writers). They don't do it randomly; they don't do it because the person doesn't fit. They do it because the person can't churn out a decent memo, even after substantial feedback. I think Munger recognizes it might scare away summer associates, but given its lean model and the fact that many associates make partner, the firm closely scrutinizes summer associates.

Moreover, Munger's offer rate isn't much worse than other well-regarded firms—firms that people fail to mention when talking about no-offers. For example, Gibson's firm-wide offer rate was 100/107 last year. Boies's was 16/18. Wachtell often no-offers one or two summer associates. By comparison, Munger's offer rate was something like 23/25 this past summer.

let's just put it this way, here's your flowchart:

1) v50 (non-munger) -> offer -> trivial chance of making partner
2a) munger -> offer -> munger -> non-trivial chance of making partner
2b) munger -> no offer -> v50 -> trivial chance of making partner

easy to see, i'd pick #2 because its just the best of the 3 options.



Except 2b is a fantasy. 2b looks more like: Munger --> no offer --> negligible chance of picking something up at 3L OCI/through mass mailing (except many firms aren't taking 3Ls, and if the person needs/wants to be in any specific market, it's going to be an uphill battle

I don't know why people assume that finding a job as a 3L is so easy. I turned down a Munger offer during 2L (so, I had the credentials to be there) and after my 2L summer experience, went through 3L OCI for a different firm. Even with good grades and the credentials for a Munger spot, it's still very difficult to find a job.

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Re: Should one worry about a Munger no offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:55 pm

For people worried about not getting an offer at Munger, just clerk in the 9th circuit after you graduate and you'll get a job offer from them.




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