Kirkland vs. Hughes Hubbard Forum

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone speak to HHR's "good culture?" What exactly sets them apart from other firms in NYC? From what I've heard, biglaw hours won't change drastically depending on the firm you're at, so is it solely the people?

[Anonymous User]

You'll get all three. Are you sure that's all you want?

Look - the economy is in awful shape. It was Kirkland Chi, DPW, Weil, or two NLJ250s in secondary markets w/ "lifestyle" hours for me.

I didn't want to take one of the NLJ250s and get no-offered for economic reasons (they were very rocky during 2008-2010). I hated DPW (one of my interviewers was nearly hostile to me) during my CB despite getting an offer and while I liked Weil "ok" (associates at lunch described it as very cliquey, but otherwise I had a reasonable time) I didn't like NY at all and I loved K&E.

Sure, I'm a bit intimidated by the free-market system, but my options weren't stellar considering what I had to work with - 2 extremes. I chose K&E based on feel (genuinely liked it) and security - I would love to make a career there but I understand that's not realistic, so at the last I'd like to gain a bit of experience before I am forced to lateral out. I'd genuinely like to make a career at a firm, but with the economy the way it is I had difficult choices to make.

What am I missing here?

[rayiner]

c) 2-3 years there unless they let me stay billing at 2500

at this being a sustainable amount of billables over 4+ years.

Doctors work worse hours than that over 4 years during their residency. While not sleeping and getting bodily fluids all over them. For shit pay.

[kaiser]

c) 2-3 years there unless they let me stay billing at 2500

at this being a sustainable amount of billables over 4+ years.

Doctors work worse hours than that over 4 years during their residency. While not sleeping and getting bodily fluids all over them. For shit pay.

Sounds like the life of an amateur porn star as well

[Anonymous User]

c) 2-3 years there unless they let me stay billing at 2500

at this being a sustainable amount of billables over 4+ years.

Doctors work worse hours than that over 4 years during their residency. While not sleeping and getting bodily fluids all over them. For shit pay.

Sounds like the life of an amateur porn star as well

porn hours are way better. i'd only need to be on set for 3 minutes.

[MrKappus]

c) 2-3 years there unless they let me stay billing at 2500

at this being a sustainable amount of billables over 4+ years.

Doctors work worse hours than that over 4 years during their residency. While not sleeping and getting bodily fluids all over them. For shit pay.

True, but the comparison's not really on point. Are there firms were 2500 is the average? Thought I'd read, admittedly a few years ago, that K&E's average was 2050.

[quakeroats]

You'll get all three. Are you sure that's all you want?

Look - the economy is in awful shape. It was Kirkland Chi, DPW, Weil, or two NLJ250s in secondary markets w/ "lifestyle" hours for me.

I didn't want to take one of the NLJ250s and get no-offered for economic reasons (they were very rocky during 2008-2010). I hated DPW (one of my interviewers was nearly hostile to me) during my CB despite getting an offer and while I liked Weil "ok" (associates at lunch described it as very cliquey, but otherwise I had a reasonable time) I didn't like NY at all and I loved K&E.

Sure, I'm a bit intimidated by the free-market system, but my options weren't stellar considering what I had to work with - 2 extremes. I chose K&E based on feel (genuinely liked it) and security - I would love to make a career there but I understand that's not realistic, so at the last I'd like to gain a bit of experience before I am forced to lateral out. I'd genuinely like to make a career at a firm, but with the economy the way it is I had difficult choices to make.

What am I missing here?

Based on your options, I'd say you're not missing much if anything.

[rayiner]

c) 2-3 years there unless they let me stay billing at 2500

at this being a sustainable amount of billables over 4+ years.

Doctors work worse hours than that over 4 years during their residency. While not sleeping and getting bodily fluids all over them. For shit pay.

True, but the comparison's not really on point. Are there firms were 2500 is the average? Thought I'd read, admittedly a few years ago, that K&E's average was 2050.

It's on point whether it's sustainable or not.

[rayiner]

You'll get all three. Are you sure that's all you want?

Look - the economy is in awful shape. It was Kirkland Chi, DPW, Weil, or two NLJ250s in secondary markets w/ "lifestyle" hours for me.

I didn't want to take one of the NLJ250s and get no-offered for economic reasons (they were very rocky during 2008-2010). I hated DPW (one of my interviewers was nearly hostile to me) during my CB despite getting an offer and while I liked Weil "ok" (associates at lunch described it as very cliquey, but otherwise I had a reasonable time) I didn't like NY at all and I loved K&E.

Sure, I'm a bit intimidated by the free-market system, but my options weren't stellar considering what I had to work with - 2 extremes. I chose K&E based on feel (genuinely liked it) and security - I would love to make a career there but I understand that's not realistic, so at the last I'd like to gain a bit of experience before I am forced to lateral out. I'd genuinely like to make a career at a firm, but with the economy the way it is I had difficult choices to make.

What am I missing here?

Based on your options, I'd say you're not missing much if anything.

Yes, anon. Sorry you had to choose between three shitty V10s. If only you had some secondary-market NLJ250 options.

[MrKappus]

It's on point whether it's sustainable or not.

Again, not really. The question isn't "Can a human work 70+ hours a week for four years?" Of course they can. Every worker during the Industrial Revolution did it. The question is "Can a human do 70+ hours of legal work for 4+ years?" The residency example doesn't answer that one.

[Anonymous User]

Yes, anon. Sorry you had to choose between three shitty V10s. If only you had some secondary-market NLJ250 options.

Anon here - I get the sarcasm but with all the K&E hate I feel like I should have taken Weil/DPW or something. The way people describe the environment makes it look like some sort of nightmarish cutthroat hell ("Firms to Avoid" thread).

Also could have had Skadden Chi but on my CB the associates described the work-assignment system as very free-market despite the existence of an assignment coordinator.

[rayiner]

Yes, anon. Sorry you had to choose between three shitty V10s. If only you had some secondary-market NLJ250 options.

Anon here - I get the sarcasm but with all the K&E hate I feel like I should have taken Weil/DPW or something. The way people describe the environment makes it look like some sort of nightmarish cutthroat hell ("Firms to Avoid" thread).

Also could have had Skadden Chi but on my CB the associates described the work-assignment system as very free-market despite the existence of an assignment coordinator.

OP: If you didn't like NY and like Chicago, Kirkland is absolutely the right choice. It's an hours-heavy intense place, but it's not cut-throat. Firms become cut-throat when there isn't enough work, folks at Kirkland have more than enough to go around.

[Anonymous User]

Billing 2,500 hours every year at K&E will not only let you stay there, you will probably make non-share partner and a nice, market-shattering bonus.

You really only need to be worried if you're billing fewer than 2,000 hours. Even then, I'd wager you'd last 2-3 years at that level. And even then you won't get fired. You'll just be politely told that you're not partner-track and that you should probably start thinking about your next steps.

[Anonymous User]

c) 2-3 years there unless they let me stay billing at 2500

at this being a sustainable amount of billables over 4+ years.

Doctors work worse hours than that over 4 years during their residency. While not sleeping and getting bodily fluids all over them. For shit pay.

True, but the comparison's not really on point. Are there firms were 2500 is the average? Thought I'd read, admittedly a few years ago, that K&E's average was 2050.

Wachtell. Maybe Quinn and Boies. I doubt anywhere else gets all that close to 2500.

[Helmholtz]

Wachtell. Maybe Quinn and Boies. I doubt anywhere else gets all that close to 2500.

People at Wachtell wish they could get by with billing only 2500.

[Anonymous User]

True, but the comparison's not really on point. Are there firms were 2500 is the average? Thought I'd read, admittedly a few years ago, that K&E's average was 2050.

Wachtell. Maybe Quinn and Boies. I doubt anywhere else gets all that close to 2500.

I used 2500 as a "safe" figure. Better overestimate and be happy for the slack than otherwise.

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone speak to HHR's "good culture?" What exactly sets them apart from other firms in NYC? From what I've heard, biglaw hours won't change drastically depending on the firm you're at, so is it solely the people?

[keg411]

Yes, anon. Sorry you had to choose between three shitty V10s. If only you had some secondary-market NLJ250 options.

Anon here - I get the sarcasm but with all the K&E hate I feel like I should have taken Weil/DPW or something. The way people describe the environment makes it look like some sort of nightmarish cutthroat hell ("Firms to Avoid" thread).

Also could have had Skadden Chi but on my CB the associates described the work-assignment system as very free-market despite the existence of an assignment coordinator.

OP: If you didn't like NY and like Chicago, Kirkland is absolutely the right choice. It's an hours-heavy intense place, but it's not cut-throat. Firms become cut-throat when there isn't enough work, folks at Kirkland have more than enough to go around.

It's no secret that K&E Chicago is cutthroat in a sense, though. We talked about it; they had a huge no-offer rate in 2009 and some people can't "hack" the free market system. K&E isn't an "easy" firm to work for in terms of the structure since it has the double-whammy of being "free market" but not lockstep (there are plenty of firms that run "free market" in practice, but a significant number are also lockstep salary/bonus).

However, that being said, if you "fit" there and think you have the personality to thrive in that type of system, then by all means, go to Kirkland. However, I don't know enough about Hughes Hubbard to make a judgment on OP's question.

[Anonymous User]

It's no secret that K&E Chicago is cutthroat in a sense, though. We talked about it; they had a huge no-offer rate in 2009 and some people can't "hack" the free market system. K&E isn't an "easy" firm to work for in terms of the structure since it has the double-whammy of being "free market" but not lockstep (there are plenty of firms that run "free market" in practice, but a significant number are also lockstep salary/bonus).

However, that being said, if you "fit" there and think you have the personality to thrive in that type of system, then by all means, go to Kirkland. However, I don't know enough about Hughes Hubbard to make a judgment on OP's question.

They had a huge no-offer rate in 2009 because the Chicago SA numbers dropped by 75%.

It seems to me that free market + K&E bonus structure would more readily apprise you of your status with the firm; if you're receiving a lot of work with decent bonuses, you're less likely to get pink slipped.

Again, most of the associates with whom I've spoken said that the Free Market system works to your advantage - there is more than plenty of work to go around, and the system ends up allowing you liberality in choosing assignments rather than confining you to something.